Better Debut Album: It’s Dark and Hell is Hot or Reasonable Doubt?

[spliz]

nikka vol 3 was on sale 3 days in 99

So? I guess I don’t look at it like that cause I had exclusive access to the album. I had that shyt weeks before it dropped.

 

[Cladyclad]

This is exactly what I was saying when I said Jay was making certain moves that Nas wasn’t and he was also campaigning to be Biggie’s BK replacement. The nikka stays removing context to win an argument.

What moves jay made that Nas didn’t? Because I do know Nas had Biggie’s guy in his video

 

[Mike Wins]

Jay definitely put out more singles though.

Nas 96-03: If I Ruled the World, Street Dreams, Street Dreams Remix, Firm Biz, Phone Tap, Nas Is Like, Hate Me Now, Nastradamus, You Owe Me, Bridge 2001, Oochie Wally, Got Urself A..., One Mic, Made You Look, I Can (and Quick to Back Down if you wanna count it).

Jay 96-03: Dead Presidents, Ain't No, Can't Knock the Hustle, Feelin' It, Who You Wit, Sunshine, The City is Mine, It's Alright, Can I Get A, Hard Knock Life, Money Cash, Jigga What, Jigga My, Girls Best Friend, Do It Again, Things That U Do, Anything, Big Pimpin, Give It To Me, Change the Game, Guilty Until Proven Innocent, Izzo, Girls, Girls, Girls, Song Cry, 03 Bonnie and Clyde, Excuse Me Miss, Excuse Me Miss Remix, Change Clothes, Dirt Off Your Shoulder, 99 Problems, Numb/Encore...

Jay was smart to keep putting singles out - although if you look at that list not every song was huge.

Not a coincidence basically all the biggest NY albums and rappers 1998-2003 were on Def Jam. Their marketing machines was ridiculous. Jay, DMX and Ja were getting a level of push and visibility nobody else was getting.

Plus after Nastradamus, Nas basically stopped the blatant commercial crossover attempts, or if he made them it was to get the label off his back but they weren't dropping as singles. Compare the singles off Stillmatic, God's Son, SD. Most of em intentionally against the grain

 

[SunZoo]

how did Jay get the spot over Nas, Wu, X, Mase etc…

all these guys sold more and people loved their music off the rip. How did Jay get that spot with a mediocre catalog?

@FreshAIG @SunZoo can one of y’all break this down

"THE REASON WHY WE LEADIN THE PACK?
THIS IS A MARATHON, YOU START OFF FAST AND THEN YOU WEEZIN IN THE BACK."

Just because Jay wasn't a disruptive force (like X) doesn't mean his shyt was mediocre. A lot of people throw that angle out there because he didn't pop right away, but Imagine really getting put on to Jay around Vol. 2., which a lot of people did....

I don't give a fukk what nikkas say in hindsight, that album was EVERYWHEREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE being rapped word for word by EVERYBODDDYYYYY. Now nikkas knock it for the singles but half that album was on the fukking radio fam. If you witnessed that, THEN went back to really digest RD and even vol 1, which is flawed but still pretty dense you got this sense of consistentcy and foresight that you weren't getting from his contemporaries.

That might not matter to the average fan at the time because DMX was dynamic, his first couple big placements made Hip Hop do a collective but I've always felt like them shyts were time capsules. It's not fair to X at all but a lot of people looked at him to fill a void that Pac left..once you get a sense that wasn't really what he was about, a lot of the hype around that aspect and the gimmicky shyt faded and his stride leveled out like most rappers.

I feel like RD, however far removed it is from his time as a pop star is what afforded him the good will to do commercial shyt, stay relevant and still be floating near the top of the crop while different cats had their time in the sun.

 

[Mike Ock]

So? I guess I don’t look at it like that cause I had exclusive access to the album. I had that shyt weeks before it dropped.

You musta gotten it from Un, lol.

 

[spliz]

What moves jay made that Nas didn’t? Because I do know Nas had Biggie’s guy in his video

nikka when it comes to radio singles and features there’s literally no comparison. Jay was looked at as Biggie’s man himself. They was also both from BK. Jay also had that Def Jam marketing. And he wasn’t making it a secret he wanted to be next in line.

 

[ThirdAct]

@ the X vs Jay thread turning into a Nas vs Jay thread, let's try to keep this on topic lmao

But last thing on the subject - I stand by Nas being mismanaged by Columbia, there's songs that coulda been big singles that he shoulda put out...some albums only two singles put out while Jay put out like five singles every album. Jay stayed putting singles out which was the smart move

 

[Cladyclad]

"THE REASON WHY WE LEADIN THE PACK?
THIS IS A MARATHON, YOU START OFF FAST AND THEN YOU WEEZIN IN THE BACK."

Just because Jay wasn't a disruptive force (like X) doesn't mean his shyt was mediocre. A lot of people throw that angle out there because he didn't pop right away, but Imagine really getting put on to Jay around Vol. 2., which a lot of people did....

I don't give a fukk what nikkas say in hindsight, that album was EVERYWHEREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE being rapped word for word by EVERYBODDDYYYYY. Now nikkas knock it for the singles but half that album was on the fukking radio fam. If you witnessed that, THEN went back to really digest RD and even vol 1, which is flawed but still pretty dense you got this sense of consistentcy and foresight that you weren't getting from his contemporaries.

That might not matter to the average fan at the time because DMX was dynamic, his first couple big placements made Hip Hop do a collective but I've always felt like them shyts were time capsules. It's not fair to X at all but a lot of people looked at him to fill a void that Pac left..once you get a sense that wasn't really what he was about, a lot of the hype around that aspect and the gimmicky shyt faded and his stride leveled out like most rappers.

I feel like RD, however far removed it is from his time as a pop star is what afforded him the good will to do commercial shyt, stay relevant and still be floating near the top of the crop while different cats had their time in the sun.

I’m out. I’m done

fresh & Sunzoo

said it all

once again lurkers listen to these guys

Peace

 

[Mike Wins]

Just him saying shooting a crown off. Everyone thought jay. The blueprint wasn’t even out yet. So why do X need to shoot the crown off anyone if he sold 5 million?

he's saying that's what he did. Past tense. When he dropped his last album.

Everyone knew it was Jay because of the timeline I just posted and who else would it be? Ja? X and Nas were always cool far as anyone knew where there was rumored beef between Jay and X for a while

 

[spliz]

"THE REASON WHY WE LEADIN THE PACK?
THIS IS A MARATHON, YOU START OFF FAST AND THEN YOU WEEZIN IN THE BACK."

Just because Jay wasn't a disruptive force (like X) doesn't mean his shyt was mediocre. A lot of people throw that angle out there because he didn't pop right away, but Imagine really getting put on to Jay around Vol. 2., which a lot of people did....

I don't give a fukk what nikkas say in hindsight, that album was EVERYWHEREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE being rapped word for word by EVERYBODDDYYYYY. Now nikkas knock it for the singles but half that album was on the fukking radio fam. If you witnessed that, THEN went back to really digest RD and even vol 1, which is flawed but still pretty dense you got this sense of consistentcy and foresight that you weren't getting from his contemporaries.

That might not matter to the average fan at the time because DMX was dynamic, his first couple big placements made Hip Hop do a collective but I've always felt like them shyts were time capsules. It's not fair to X at all but a lot of people looked at him to fill a void that Pac left..once you get a sense that wasn't really what he was about, a lot of the hype around that aspect and the gimmicky shyt faded and his stride leveled out like most rappers.

I feel like RD, however far removed it is from his time as a pop star is what afforded him the good will to do commercial shyt, stay relevant and still be floating near the top of the crop while different cats had their time in the sun.

I don’t know what this argument is. nikkas just saying they feel IDAHIH impacted them more personally and nikkas gettin they panties in a bunch.

 

[Mike Wins]

I’m out. I’m done

fresh & Sunzoo

said it all

once again lurkers listen to these guys

Peace

Peace, just remember FreshAIG holds an opinion on these albums that you called laughable

I understand preference but if u are a unbiased hiphop head this is a laughable thread.

 

[DarkandHellisHot]

It's Dark and Hell is Hot.

 

[Cladyclad]

Peace, just remember FreshAIG holds an opinion on these albums that you called laughable

Dmx is his favorite rapper so my point stands. I’m out. Also Fresh is/was smart enough to be able to express his opinion based on his own feeling and not phrases like “X was hot like fish grease” or “he killed shiny suits”.

now im out lol

 

[Tommy Gibbs]

It’s Dark really had no big club anthems. The album is super dark and content heavy and a lot of story telling songs. Most of Dark is introspective and retrospective and gives you a insight into extreme poverty, neglect, depression which lead to extreme crime and violence. While at the same time X was rhyming his ass off.

Reasonable Doubt is one of the top 5 most lyrical albums ever, imo. Elite/dense rhyming with super clever metaphors and wordplay with in-depth stories about hustling, crime, the suffering, reflection on what it did to the community, but also living the highlife and enjoying his fortunes.

I picked Dark simply because it touched me more as a project. It spoke more to my reality, add on I prefer X's style of storytelling more and his vulnerability when describing his personal demons. That connects more with me.

Both albums are 5 mics imo. Both top 10 rap albums for me personally.

What???? I was in the clubs in 98 and "ruff ryders anthem" and "get at me dog" were always played.. 2 club joints that received heavy rotation.

 

[Tommy Gibbs]

I love Jay and preferred RD for years. I wasnt big into X in the 90s bc i didnt think he was lyrical enough.

I revisited Dark in recent years and yea....it was a more impactful album and X was a better rhymer thsn i gave him credit for, solid storyteller too

Dark might be a top 5 debut album ever

No.