Best Wrestler Alive Tourney 1st Round --- Chris Jericho vs. Katsuyori Shibata

[FunkDoc1112]

LionGOAT

 

[Beautiful Bobby Eatin]

I guess you can make a case for Shibata in the ring depending on how you judge Jericho's 90's work. But at the end of the day Shibata's run is just too short and Jericho is just too good in stuff like promos and gimmick/personality, dude is one of the most complete wrestlers of the past 25 years.



Settle down breh...

Tell me how he isnt?

 

[Jmare007]

I don't know, man... combining how complete he is as a wrestler, the numerous characters he's played, and the longevity of his run with such diversity of roles across it and some innate understanding of how to play with crowds (see: Mute-Troll Jericho with the coat, The List, Judas) dude... pretty much has to be in the conversation.

Tell me how he isnt?

1.- Considering it's Jericho, we have to completely take out drawing as a category for this "GOAT" discussion. His best accolades in this regard have come in AEW and even that is debatable (the New Japan case, if made, is laughable, he got like 80k US fans to watch online for a product that was already "hot" for that audience, that's not really anything to write home about). This is not that big of a deal to be honest. When you make drawing a category the list of truly GOATs is like, what, 10, 15?

2.- For every character change and successful gimmick he had a lackluster run that was what basically made him do that 180°. This is by far his biggest accomplishment as a wrestler though. I don't think anyone comes close to having 5 or 6 big runs with vastly different gimmicks, in different companies, in very different stages of a career. This is his real legacy as a wrestler, imo.

3.- When you talking about "GOAT" discussion you are putting Jericho against people that are truly insane in terms of match quality and quantity. He's not on that level. Which isn't to say Jericho wasn't great, but competition is too tough for a guy like him. He's top 40 to me when compared to guys I've seen (and that's considering how little lucha and WOS I've watched) might even be top 50 considering how little I've liked his ring work the last 4 years.

4.- Great promo guy for almost 2 decades, another feather on his cap. Is he top 5? I wouldn't think so. Is he top 10? maybe?.

I add all this things up and the one thing he is truly elite and can make a case for being the best ever at something is character development. When I judge a GOAT case I don't put THAT much stock in this factor because there's people that could excel with little development. It didn't make them bad wrestlers or made them less entertaining because they weren't a chameleon, at all. So yeah, the fact that Jericho is so unique in this regard makes him stand out, like I said, it's his legacy and something that no one can take from him. But GOAT candidate? nah


And yeah, dude is very complete. I repeat, one of the most complete in the last 25 years. But I'd argue he very, very rarely was able to check every box at the same time. That's why his 08-09 run is so special, imo. If you stretch that shyt for 5-6 years instead of two, then I could see an argument.

 

[Beautiful Bobby Eatin]

1.- Considering it's Jericho, we have to completely take out drawing as a category for this "GOAT" discussion. His best accolades in this regard have come in AEW and even that is debatable (the New Japan case, if made, is laughable, he got like 80k US fans to watch online for a product that was already "hot" for that audience, that's not really anything to write home about). This is not that big of a deal to be honest. When you make drawing a category the list of truly GOATs is like, what, 10, 15?

2.- For every character change and successful gimmick he had a lackluster run that was what basically made him do that 180°. This is by far his biggest accomplishment as a wrestler though. I don't think anyone comes close to having 5 or 6 big runs with vastly different gimmicks, in different companies, in very different stages of a career. This is his real legacy as a wrestler, imo.

3.- When you talking about "GOAT" discussion you are putting Jericho against people that are truly insane in terms of match quality and quantity. He's not on that level. Which isn't to say Jericho wasn't great, but competition is too tough for a guy like him. He's top 40 to me when compared to guys I've seen (and that's considering how little lucha and WOS I've watched) might even be top 50 considering how little I've liked his ring work the last 4 years.

4.- Great promo guy for almost 2 decades, another feather on his cap. Is he top 5? I wouldn't think so. Is he top 10? maybe?.

I add all this things up and the one thing he is truly elite and can make a case for being the best ever at something is character development. When I judge a GOAT case I don't put THAT much stock in this factor because there's people that could excel with little development. It didn't make them bad wrestlers or made them less entertaining because they weren't a chameleon, at all. So yeah, the fact that Jericho is so unique in this regard makes him stand out, like I said, it's his legacy and something that no one can take from him. But GOAT candidate? nah


And yeah, dude is very complete. I repeat, one of the most complete in the last 25 years. But I'd argue he very, very rarely was able to check every box at the same time. That's why his 08-09 run is so special, imo. If you stretch that shyt for 5-6 years instead of two, then I could see an argument.

fair. Though i dont think even his 09 run could be stretched out for 5 years. Not in the era of wrestling that had a three hour Raw and Two hour Smackdown every week. His lackluster runs came across as bad booking in most cases which to me dont factor in. I think what you do with the booking you have is what makes you special.



When you look at a GOAT those factors vary from person to person. Some say in ring, some say character, some say longevity, some say variety of working roles. When you look at the scope of that how many wrestlers actually can check all of those boxes to a significant degree? Flair? Savage? Austin? Taker?

Yes, complete is probably a better word for it but to me he is still in that convo. Every star fades, ring work deteriorates, true. But how many can say that they kept a relatively regular schedule working multiple styles with multiple characters working with every major star in wrestling across the globe for 30 years?

For that reason I gotta include him in the conversation

 

[Jmare007]

fair. Though i dont think even his 09 run could be stretched out for 5 years. Not in the era of wrestling that had a three hour Raw and Two hour Smackdown every week. His lackluster runs came across as bad booking in most cases which to me dont factor in. I think what you do with the booking you have is what makes you special.

I meant stretching the consistency of being great in ring, character wise, heat/reaction and top promos for more than 2 years. We'll have to agree to disagree on his lackluster runs. The thing about Jericho coming up with new shyt to reinvent himself is normally to combat bad booking, to the point that even when his booking is bad (or as the case in the last 10-15 years, as bad as everyone else) he's entertaining. So when he's not entertaining for a run, that's more on him imo. That's a stupid high standard, I realize that, but again...we talking about GOATs.

When you look at a GOAT those factors vary from person to person. Some say in ring, some say character, some say longevity, some say variety of working roles. When you look at the scope of that how many wrestlers actually can check all of those boxes to a significant degree? Flair? Savage? Austin? Taker?

If Austin and Taker (and Jericho) can make that list then shyt breh, I fukk ton of people are in that conversation.

Spoiler

God, Flair, Lawler, Bockwinkle, Hansen, Savage, Casas, Tenryu, Jumbo, Misawa, Hashimoto, Eddie, Regal, Bret, Rey, Liger, Bryan...

That's already 17 off the top of my head and I wouldn't put Jericho above any of them.

If you put "promos" in instead of just "character" then yeah, the list gets shorter (it's still more than 10 though) but that would be moving the goal posts a bit much, imo.

Yes, complete is probably a better word for it but to me he is still in that convo. Every star fades, ring work deteriorates, true. But how many can say that they kept a relatively regular schedule working multiple styles with multiple characters working with every major star in wrestling across the globe for 30 years?

For that reason I gotta include him in the conversation

But that's also booking, no? And again, most of those 17 guys I listed still meet that criteria. It could be even more wrestlers too, don't wanna put THAT much thought on a list

It's also Jericho being very fukking smart. Which is another thing that he has historically over pretty much anyone. You are right in that GOATs discussions vary depending on how much weight you put in the the different factors, I guess Jericho best accomplishments comes on stuff I never put that much weight on so the notion of him being in a REAL discussion about GOATs sound alien to me.

 

[Beautiful Bobby Eatin]

I meant stretching the consistency of being great in ring, character wise, heat/reaction and top promos for more than 2 years. We'll have to agree to disagree on his lackluster runs. The thing about Jericho coming up with new shyt to reinvent himself is normally to combat bad booking, to the point that even when his booking is bad (or as the case in the last 10-15 years, as bad as everyone else) he's entertaining. So when he's not entertaining for a run, that's more on him imo. That's a stupid high standard, I realize that, but again...we talking about GOATs.



If Austin and Taker (and Jericho) can make that list then shyt breh, I fukk ton of people are in that conversation.

Spoiler

God, Flair, Lawler, Bockwinkle, Hansen, Savage, Casas, Tenryu, Jumbo, Misawa, Hashimoto, Eddie, Regal, Bret, Rey, Liger, Bryan...

That's already 17 off the top of my head and I wouldn't put Jericho above any of them.

If you put "promos" in instead of just "character" then yeah, the list gets shorter (it's still more than 10 though) but that would be moving the goal posts a bit much, imo.

But that's also booking, no? And again, most of those 17 guys I listed still meet that criteria. It could be even more wrestlers too, don't wanna put THAT much thought on a list

It's also Jericho being very fukking smart. Which is another thing that he has historically over pretty much anyone. You are right in that GOATs discussions vary depending on how much weight you put in the the different factors, I guess Jericho best accomplishments comes on stuff I never put that much weight on so the notion of him being in a REAL discussion about GOATs sound alien to me.

With the exception of Negro Casas I enjoy each and every one of those guys too. I even have nearly the same amount of feelings towards Regal being underrated as Jericho. Eddie kinda got his due but i feel like that was due to his death as well as everything else. And yeah there are FAR better wrestlers on that list but when I break them down, how much of the other stuff I mentioned is really there? My GOAT has to have some degree of everything otherwise were talking about the "Best In-Ring" or "Biggest Draw". But if i were to break down most of those guys, its one or two factors that put them in the conversation. And id NEVER put Lawler in that convo. He is a regional legend who got a commentator career in the big leagues which is what he is widely known for. Great promo and can work a crowd and even a great draw regionally but far from a GOAT.

Jericho had a lot of input with character and even some aspects of storylines but not everything. Take the Ambrose feud in the E. Mitch the Plant? That stupid shyt was a Vince idea. I believe he is getting more input on that feud on AEW and it shows.

At the end of the day, we'll prob have to agree to disagree as our tastes though somewhat similar our criteria is different (as our Terry Funk debate showed) but factoring in so much criteria and navigating the scope of how much wrestling has changed (in business AND style) its criminal if Jericho isnt at least in the conversation.

 

[BrehWyatt]

Shibata matches get me invested unlike MOST matches out there. The dude is involved in some of the most enthralling ass-whippings you'll ever see.

If we're voting solely on in-ring product, I'm checking for a Shibata match before Jericho and most other people.

That said, Jericho has him topped most everywhere else by a considerable margin (sans theme. Shibata's music GOES ).

As bad as I don't want to vote against a dude known as "The Wrestler" -- a breh who literally damn near died for this shyt and delivered arguably the most THOROUGH beatdown you'll ever see in a losing effort -- Jericho as a total package has a legit argument as the best to ever perform in the squared circle. He did everything well and continues to keep it fresh and relevant as time goes on.

Gotta go Jericho

Motherfukkin' @2 Cold Taurus can pull THIS bullshyt but not ... nevermind

 

[Jmare007]

With the exception of Negro Casas I enjoy each and every one of those guys too. I even have nearly the same amount of feelings towards Regal being underrated as Jericho. Eddie kinda got his due but i feel like that was due to his death as well as everything else. And yeah there are FAR better wrestlers on that list but when I break them down, how much of the other stuff I mentioned is really there? My GOAT has to have some degree of everything otherwise were talking about the "Best In-Ring" or "Biggest Draw". But if i were to break down most of those guys, its one or two factors that put them in the conversation. And id NEVER put Lawler in that convo. He is a regional legend who got a commentator career in the big leagues which is what he is widely known for. Great promo and can work a crowd and even a great draw regionally but far from a GOAT.

The bolded:

-They have everything, that's why I put them there. They meet the in ring, personality and character work (in the case of non Japaneses dudes, they are also good to great promos) criteria. I hope the Casas thing is because you haven't watched him because dude is otherworldly and if you wanna include "longevity" as a criteria he's the only one that can compete with Tenryu.

-That's exactly what happens with Jericho too. That's my point. If you wanna include him in the conversation because he has a little bit of everything with 1 or 2 big things, then the discussion can include a whole bunch of people that were better than him at 2 or 3 and worse in 1.


RE: Lawler. "He's a regional guy" is a dumb narrative imo. By that standard almost every Japenese guy is a regional guy because they just worked there territory. And Lawler did stuff in a bunch of promotions.

 

[Beautiful Bobby Eatin]

The bolded:

-They have everything, that's why I put them there. They meet the in ring, personality and character work (in the case of non Japaneses dudes, they are also good to great promos) criteria. I hope the Casas thing is because you haven't watched him because dude is otherworldly and if you wanna include "longevity" as a criteria he's the only one that can compete with Tenryu.

-That's exactly what happens with Jericho too. That's my point. If you wanna include him in the conversation because he has a little bit of everything with 1 or 2 big things, then the discussion can include a whole bunch of people that were better than him at 2 or 3 and worse in 1.


RE: Lawler. "He's a regional guy" is a dumb narrative imo. By that standard almost every Japenese guy is a regional guy because they just worked there territory. And Lawler did stuff in a bunch of promotions.

Theres is a reason why Lawler is mentioned as a "Memphis Legend" and Flair is not a "Mid-Atlantic Legend". Theyre not in the same class as that. If Lawler had gone NWA back then, then maybe you can put him in the same conversation as Flair but I put Lawler a few notches over someone like Sgt. Slaughter as he is more talented but im supposed to believe he is GOAT level because im told he is GOAT level.

Puro is an entirely different standard because outside of the early excursion and some appearances here an there in the territories and Stampede, most of them stay in Japan. I factor that into this as well.

Casas I've watched. Ill probably never want to do a deep dive but to be fair old school 70's lucha isnt something im very into anyway. I also never got the Mil Mascaras hype but thats another story.

I very much agree with the bolded. There are a bunch of people who could be in the conversation that aren't. This initially started because you acted like Jericho couldnt possibly be one of those people. Every named you mentioned I could see being talked about intelligently in that convo. I may not always agree with all of them but its not out of left field to dig deeper into what makes a GOAT. I feel like push perception gets too far in these convos though.

 

[Toe Jay Simpson]

GoonGod Shibata is one of the best wrestlers to ever live, IMO. Like if you wanna watch somebody wrestle and be entertained by how real it looks, here you go.

But Jericho trumps him in everything else, so

Shibata is beating the hell out of those dudes. Wrestling is fake. Shibata is real.

 

[Jmare007]

Theres is a reason why Lawler is mentioned as a "Memphis Legend" and Flair is not a "Mid-Atlantic Legend". Theyre not in the same class as that. If Lawler had gone NWA back then, then maybe you can put him in the same conversation as Flair but I put Lawler a few notches over someone like Sgt. Slaughter as he is more talented but im supposed to believe he is GOAT level because im told he is GOAT level.

Puro is an entirely different standard because outside of the early excursion and some appearances here an there in the territories and Stampede, most of them stay in Japan. I factor that into this as well.

Casas I've watched. Ill probably never want to do a deep dive but to be fair old school 70's lucha isnt something im very into anyway. I also never got the Mil Mascaras hype but thats another story.

I very much agree with the bolded. There are a bunch of people who could be in the conversation that aren't. This initially started because you acted like Jericho couldnt possibly be one of those people. Every named you mentioned I could see being talked about intelligently in that convo. I may not always agree with all of them but its not out of left field to dig deeper into what makes a GOAT. I feel like push perception gets too far in these convos though.

-I just don't get it breh. You are willing to throw drawing out of the conversation by including Jericho, but Lawler is out because he didn't work NWA? (he did btw, as he did AWA and some Japan tours, like everyone else in those years). And to be fair, you are "supposed to believe he's GOAT level" because he has 2+ decades of work to back that up. Perception as a star is a very tricky thing I guess.

-I think you got people mixed up. Negro Casas didn't even work in the 70's (and there's barely footage from the 80's from México) and has nothing to do with Máscaras

-I guess we are arguing different things. To me, if the "conversation" for GOAT includes 20 people, it's not really a legit conversation because the wrestlers that are truly a GOAT contender are like 5 no matter what criteria you are using. Going back to that little list I named, I think like 5 of them are truly GOAT candidates.

So, going back to Jericho. When I read "he might be the GOAT" I react to that thinking "he's not in that shortlist of people that can actually contend for that title. If you wanna include him, you gotta also include so many people that the conversation is about something else".

-It's been a long while since I had a good wrestling convo

 

[Kalut]

I feel with Jericho he’s the best at making me wanna watch a match due to him being able to build up and hype up a match (mic/promo/interviews), but Shibata make me wanna watch a match on the man being himself alone cause I already know that it’s gonna be piff.....both them in my top 3 so I hate the OP for making this thread , but I gotta go with with Jericho OVERALL....ima regret my answer later on..............no I’m not...............




Yes I am........