Belgium: Flemish and francophone language issue

mbewane

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Good thread.

I was just reading about some of the divisions going on in Belgium not too long ago, and it's getting pretty damn ugly. I've even read that there are pushes among the Flemish populace and the Flemish in government for essentially "Dutch-only" towns, where speaking "foreign languages" (i.e., French and even English in some cases) are heavily frowned upon, which of course makes me none too pleased (More here: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/02/o...languages.html?ref=languageandlanguages&_r=2&).

@mbewane, since you seem to be in the thick of things, how accurate is the situation in that article for the rest of the country? If it's that bad throughout, I'm not sure how the country survives without a split at best, and outright civil war at worst.

I forgot to add something: the fact that the Flemings want to protect theior langauge is legitimate: indeed, Brussels is spreading (like all big cities tend to do), not officialy (city limits are fixed by law) but in the "facts" more and more people working, studying, generally "living" in Brussels actually have their house in "De Rand", which would be the Dutch-speaking periphery of Brussels. Problem is: most of those people moving out of Brussels are french-speakers (which included Belgians, but also a LOT of immigrants) or...english-speaking EU-expats. Neither group is very keen on learning Dutch, for various reasons. So some of those "Flemish" towns around Brussels already are majoritarilly french-speaking, but officially they are still dutch-speaking (yes, it's complicated and makes no sense, but we are talking about Belgium).

So the fear of seeing Flanders "shrinking" and "losing" other towns to french-speakers, immigrants and EU-expats is very real, and I can somewhat understand it: in Brussels, French is losing ground to English (and, to a lesser extent, to Arabic, Italian...) and I'm none too pleased by that: everyone likes his/her own language. BUt the thing is that Flemings, instead of making the language/culture more "interesting", "fun", "attractive", have used it as a political weapon to create a "Vlaams natie" (Flemish nation), to deepen the divide between both communities and as a language that non-native speakers HAVE to learn, as opposed to a language they would WANT to learn. I learned Italian not because I HAD to, but because I WANTED to: I don't see how you can impose a language on someone, and they, given their own history, fully know that.
 
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Soymuscle Mike

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I'm from the Netherlands so if you want to know what we think of the Belgians... :youngsabo:

Nah just kidding, I love (parts of) Belgium and (most) Belgians. Being a native Dutch speaker I always tend to side with my Dutch-speaking folk because French speakers, both in Belgium and France, always give me the :whoa::ufdup: when I try and speak ENGLISH to them.

Language is a fascinating beast...
 

mbewane

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I'm from the Netherlands so if you want to know what we think of the Belgians... :youngsabo:

Nah just kidding, I love (parts of) Belgium and (most) Belgians. Being a native Dutch speaker I always tend to side with my Dutch-speaking folk because French speakers, both in Belgium and France, always give me the :whoa::ufdup: when I try and speak ENGLISH to them.

Language is a fascinating beast...

Aangenaam :shake:

Yeah it's natural that you would "side" with other dutch-speakers, same happens between French people and french-speaking Belgians. But they also like to make fun of us and kind of consider us like the "funny crazy cousins" from the North, there's this kind of relationship that is mostly of good nature. But I kind of heard that it was sometimes more tense between Flemings and Dutch people, what are your thoughts on that?

Yeah the thing with french-speakers (in general) and English goes way back, there has always been competition/wars between France and Britain/the UK, so it's deeply rooted. Also, a lot of French-speakers (and generally speakers of other latin languages) don't speak english that well (it's closer to dutch than to french for example), but mostly they don't like that people ASSUME that they would speak english "just because everyone speaks english". The use of english as a lingua franca is mostly confined to North-Western countries (who speak germanic languages closer to english) and to certain categories: those who travel, a part of the cultural or economical elite, tourist areas, young people who study. You'll be hard pressed to find someone with a good level of english outside those categories in France, Italy, Spain (and even in Central and Eastern Europe I think) and they find it almost insulting that someone would just speak english (especially tourists, and americans) instead of trying to speak a couple of words in the local language (sometimes just "Bonjour, parlez-vous Anglais?" is enough to break the ice). I consider that my english is not too bad, but I admit that when foreigners step to me in Brussels and just directly speak in english (or in any other language -except Dutch- for that matter) I hit them with the :childplease:. At least ASK me if I speak english first. This is where I agree with Flemings, that when you go somewhere, you should at least try to pick up a couple words of the local language, it makes SO MUCH of a difference.

But yeah, I agree that language is a fascinating beast :ahh:
 

Gallo

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School us on Selah Sue. How would I go about baggin' a Belgian chick like her?:leostare:
 

mbewane

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School us on Selah Sue. How would I go about baggin' a Belgian chick like her?:leostare:

Belgian chicks are quite cool tbh, not "stuck-up" or whatever so...but I believe she's flemish, never bagged one because of the cultural differences probably :manny:
 
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