Ariel Sharon dead @ 85

[thatrapsfan]

@Kritic

I have no horse in this race.

But ask yourself

Do the Palestinians have any chips left?

What leverage do they have?

Demographics obviously. Israel has annexed and cut roads through the only land left for a viable Palestinian state, leaving the only real solution to be one state. Current status quo can't last forever and history is a testament to that.

 

[theworldismine13]

When c00ning goes wrong

Russell Simmons tweets condolences for Ariel Sharon but then takes it back after remembering who he was
http://mondoweiss.net/2014/01/russell-condolences-remembers.html

 

[TLOL is back]

When c00ning goes wrong
Russell Simmons tweets condolences for Ariel Sharon but then takes it back after remembering who he was
http://mondoweiss.net/2014/01/russell-condolences-remembers.html

What does supporting one Israeli leader over another have to do with being black? I thought Blacks like every other race should be entitled to freedom of thought.

 

[GetInTheTruck]

Can you name a single right Jews have that Israeli Arabs don't have?



It does when you discuss who does and who does not have a fake identity



That makes absolutely no sense. You think historical ties magically disappear because other places were suggested to Jews?



I don't. Palestinians excel in that department



Yet you haven't disproved any of the facts I stated.... Because you can't


Here's a recap:

• You claim Israel has a fake identity, but Palestinians don't, even though no Arab has ever referred to himself as a Palestinian before Zionism.
• You claim Israel is unlivable for minorities, while discussing Palestinians, as if Palestinians are living in Israel (this makes absolutely no sense)
• You said Israel is a European country, while a Middle Eastern Zionist majority make up the majority of its inhabitants.
• You deny all of these basic facts while accusing me of spreading propaganda
• You accuse me of spreading propaganda while you say things which are factually incorrect

I don't even know why you guys use that whole "Palestinian" argument. Before WW2 y'all had no intention of going over there because y'all were good in Europe before a demon who we don't even have to name came through and crushed the buildings. If the Jews who claim to love Israel so much were offered a choice of having their homeland being made in Germany, Poland, or anywhere else in Europe instead of what eventually became "Israel" they would have chosen the former 10 times out of 10.

The Palestinians were there first, they could call themselves martians for all we care. That can't be debated. There was no such thing as an "Israeli" either before the state was given to them. There were Jews there, of course, just like there are Jews all over the world, and they got along well enough for the most part before that Zionist experiment hit full force.

Again, this is why Israel is a bullshyt country. It isn't genuine at all. All of its so-called power was bestowed upon them by outside entities. Let me ask you, if the United States cut the umbilical cord completely and essentially said to Israel "you're on your own from here on out, no more support from us at all - good luck" how would you feel about that? What do you think the future would hold for Israel?

How is making sure that Israel always has a Jewish majority not racist? Is there a chance of an Arab Muslim or any other ethnicity ever becoming Prime Minister of Israel or is that completely out of the question?

 

[GetInTheTruck]

nah

just a realist

Palestinians messed up with their all or nothing attitude.

This is true, and the Arab world is also full of shyt. That doesn't alter the facts though. If Israel were an independent country that survived on its own merit instead of its dependency on the west, I probably wouldn't give a fukk. That's not the case though.

I want the United States to completely remove itself from the region. I don't want us to help either side. Just step out of the way and let whatever happens happen. Enough already.

 

[GetInTheTruck]

Pretty good article that recaps this demons life:

http://www.thenation.com/article/177883/how-ariel-sharon-shaped-israels-destiny#

The true goal of Sharon’s separation regime was never to end the occupation but to reinforce it under new parameters that would prevent the collapse of Israel’s international image. A top aide to Sharon, Dov Weissglass, revealed the real logic behind Sharon’s plans: “The disengagement [from Gaza] is actually formaldehyde. It supplies the amount of formaldehyde that is necessary so there will not be a political process with the Palestinians.” Another close adviser, Arnon Sofer, was even more frank:

…when 2.5 million people live in a closed-off Gaza, it’s going to be a human catastrophe. Those people will become even bigger animals than they are today, with the aid of an insane fundamentalist Islam. The pressure at the border will be awful. It’s going to be a terrible war. So, if we want to remain alive, we will have to kill and kill and kill. All day, every day.

 

[TLOL is back]

I don't even know why you guys use that whole "Palestinian" argument. Before WW2 y'all had no intention of going over there because y'all were good in Europe before a demon who we don't even have to name came through and crushed the buildings. If the Jews who claim to love Israel so much were offered a choice of having their homeland being made in Germany, Poland, or anywhere else in Europe instead of what eventually became "Israel" they would have chosen the former 10 times out of 10.
The Palestinians were there first, they could call themselves martians for all we care. That can't be debated.

There was no such thing as an "Israeli" either before the state was given to them. There were Jews there, of course, just like there are Jews all over the world, and they got along well enough for the most part before that Zionist experiment hit full force.

Again, this is why Israel is a bullshyt country. It isn't genuine at all. All of its so-called power was bestowed upon them by outside entities.

You're not responding to a damn thing I'm saying.

Here is a question.

Question: How can you say that Israeli is a fake identity, but Palestinian is not, even though no Arab has ever called himself a Palestinian before Zionism?

That is my question.

Let me ask you, if the United States cut the umbilical cord completely and essentially said to Israel "you're on your own from here on out, no more support from us at all - good luck" how would you feel about that? What do you think the future would hold for Israel?

I'm pretty sure China would have no problem footing the bill and getting hold of Israeli ME intelligence not to mention Israeli technology.

You really think the "umbilical cord" is all about Israel? Think globally breh. The U.S. Does not want China having those benefits, and Israel would survive just fine if it partnered with China instead of the U.S.

Answer to more of your questions:

How is making sure that Israel always has a Jewish majority not racist?

Because ensuring your own survival is not racist.

Is there a chance of an Arab Muslim or any other ethnicity ever becoming Prime Minister of Israel or is that completely out of the question?

Absolutely, just like Arab Muslims have been voted into the Knesset, they can be voted as Israeli prime minister.


BTW - Israelis did exist before Israel. They called themselves Israelites. They dropped the t but the meaning is the same.

 

[GetInTheTruck]

You're not responding to a damn thing I'm saying.

Here is a question.

Question: How can you say that Israeli is a fake identity, but Palestinian is not, even though no Arab has ever called himself a Palestinian before Zionism?

That is my question.



I'm pretty sure China would have no problem footing the bill and getting hold of Israeli ME intelligence not to mention Israeli technology.

You really think the "umbilical cord" is all about Israel? Think globally breh. The U.S. Does not want China having those benefits, and Israel would survive just fine if it partnered with China instead of the U.S.

Answer to more of your questions:



Because ensuring your own survival is not racist.



Absolutely, just like Arab Muslims have been voted into the Knesset, they can be voted as Israeli prime minister.


BTW - Israelis did exist before Israel. They called themselves Israelites. They dropped the t but the meaning is the same.

Like I said, I don't give a fukk about your prepared talking points. Everybody here is familiar with the games you play and the direction you try to steer every discussion about the Arab-Israeli conflict.

I already addressed why your whole "Palestinians never existed" line of reasoning by saying it doesn't matter either way. That's the way you want to rationalize things, but it doesn't change the fact that they were there before "Israelis" and have more of a moral claim to the land than a bunch of European nomads who only went there because they were almost exterminated on another continent. You didn't answer my question as to whether those early Zionists would prefer to have their homeland in Europe instead of the Middle East if given the option. I think you know the answer to that though.

If Israel would "survive just fine" without the support of the US they wouldn't have their lobbyists entrenched within our political system making sure that support remains no matter the cost. Please. LOL @ Israel hiding behind China's skirt instead of ours yeah ok.

The Israelites were an ancient group of tribes from a particular region who can't really be completely identified in the present day. It was a religious title both in nature/character, so no, its not just a matter of "dropping the T". An Israeli is a citizen of the state of Israel. A made up identity that is fairly recent....that's why you denigrating Arabs in Israel for calling themselves "Palestinians" is laughable.

 

[TLOL is back]

Like I said, I don't give a fukk about your prepared talking points. Everybody here is familiar with the games you play and the direction you try to steer every discussion about the Arab-Israeli conflict.

I already addressed why your whole "Palestinians never existed" line of reasoning by saying it doesn't matter either way.

You haven't addressed your double standard of how you claim Israeli is invented identity but Palestinian is not.

So again, how can you claim Israeli is invented identity but not Palestinian?

That's the way you want to rationalize things,

No it is not, I'm calling out your double standard.

but it doesn't change the fact that they were there before "Israelis" and have more of a moral claim to the land than a bunch of European nomads who only went there because they were almost exterminated on another continent.

They were there before Israelis depending on how far back you want to go.

You didn't answer my question as to whether those early Zionists would prefer to have their homeland in Europe instead of the Middle East if given the option. I think you know the answer to that though.

They didn't. You made that up entirely. They were presented with options. They never "preferred" Europe.

Please. LOL @ Israel hiding behind China's skirt instead of ours yeah ok.

Is this really a valid counter-argument?

Are you suggesting China wouldn't love to have the benefits of Israeli M.E intelligence and Israeli technology for geopolitical gain?

Answer that question.

The Israelites were an ancient group of tribes from a particular region who can't really be completely identified in the present day. It was a religious title both in nature/character, so no, its not just a matter of "dropping the T". An Israeli is a citizen of the state of Israel. A made up identity that is fairly recent....that's why you denigrating Arabs in Israel for calling themselves "Palestinians" is laughable.

None of that is relevant to the fact that Jews identified as Israelites (Israelis) even before Israel was born. Therefore, the identity has always been there, whether you agree with them or not.

 

[GetInTheTruck]

You haven't addressed your double standard of how you claim Israeli is invented identity but Palestinian is not.

So again, how can you claim Israeli is invented identity but not Palestinian?

I'm saying it doesn't matter. My stance is based on the fact that prior to the holocaust the Jews were living it up in Europe with no intention at all of returning to their so-called "homeland." Those Arabs you are trying to shyt on for calling themselves "Palestinian" were always there. They never left, therefore their claim to the land holds more weight by default. It's common sense.

They were there before Israelis depending on how far back you want to go.

Ok...

They didn't. You made that up entirely. They were presented with options. They never "preferred" Europe.

The fact that they were presented with "options" is proof that this whole experiment is some bullshyt that never should have occurred in the first place. What other people on earth have been afforded this kind of compensation due to an atrocity committed against them? shyt is painfully hilarious when you think about it.

What am I making up though? When Jews were economically well off in Europe and living high off the hog how many of them were flocking to the land that would later become "Israel" due to their yearning to "go back to their ancestral homeland?" Please. They didn't give a fukk about going over there until they started getting killed wholesale in Europe.

Is this really a valid counter-argument?

Are you suggesting China wouldn't love to have the benefits of Israeli M.E intelligence and Israeli technology for geopolitical gain?

Answer that question.

I don't know and neither do you. I do know that expecting the Chinese to sympathize with Jews and Jewish interests on the same level as Americans is stupid as fukk. The Chinese don't come from a judeo-christian culture, they don't give a fukk about any of that biblical shyt. The second they don't see a benefit in keeping that bullshyt country afloat they'll cut support ASAP. That's what we should do, but we won't because lobbyists make sure the status quo remains no matter what. But you're in here acting like American support of Israel isn't a big deal and can easily be substituted yeah, ok.

None of that is relevant to the fact that Jews identified as Israelites (Israelis) even before Israel was born. Therefore, the identity has always been there, whether you agree with them or not.

Identity as an "Israelite" in biblical times is completely different from the identity as an "Israeli" living in the state of Israel today. It's not a matter of me agreeing or disagreeing, it's just a fact. You simplifying it to "israelite without the T!!" is fukking absurd.

 

[TLOL is back]

I'm saying it doesn't matter.

So you withdraw your argument of Israel being a fake identity in order to discredit it?

My stance is based on the fact that prior to the holocaust the Jews were living it up in Europe with no intention at all of returning to their so-called "homeland."

You really know nothing about Jews, the Middle East, or history do you? Here are some questions:

1) Are you aware that the Zionist movement began over half a century before the rise of Nazi Germany?

2) Are you aware that 50% of Israel's Jews are actually Middle Eastern, making your generalization about Jews "living it up in Europe" not accurate? Are you aware some of them were even in Israel, Jerusalem specifically, and there was an entire area called The Jewish Quarter due to the Jewish inhabitants consistently through history?

Those Arabs you are trying to shyt on for calling themselves "Palestinian" were always there.

Always?

1) How do you explain the Arab conquests that occurred over the years in that very territory?

2) How do you explain the influx of Arab immigrants in the mid 1800s?

3) How do you explain the 100,000 Arabs who immigrated during the 1900s?

They were always there?

They never left, therefore their claim to the land holds more weight by default. It's common sense.

Jews didn't leave either, they were kicked out.

The fact that they were presented with "options" is proof that this whole experiment is some bullshyt that never should have occurred in the first place.

How are people being offered options a discredit to whether or not they have historical ties to a specific land?

What other people on earth have been afforded this kind of compensation due to an atrocity committed against them?

They were offered other options before the holocaust...Zionism occurred before the holocaust, long before the holocaust. You consistently demonstrate that you are simply not educated on history

What am I making up though? When Jews were economically well off in Europe and living high off the hog how many of them were flocking to the land that would later become "Israel" due to their yearning to "go back to their ancestral homeland?" Please. They didn't give a fukk about going over there until they started getting killed wholesale in Europe.

You're making up that Jews preferred other countries. Do you think people can just up and leave and go to any part of the world that they want or something?

I don't know and neither do you. I do know that expecting the Chinese to sympathize with Jews and Jewish interests on the same level as Americans is stupid as fukk. The Chinese don't come from a judeo-christian culture, they don't give a fukk about any of that biblical shyt. The second they don't see a benefit in keeping that bullshyt country afloat they'll cut support ASAP. That's what we should do, but we won't because lobbyists make sure the status quo remains no matter what. But you're in here acting like American support of Israel isn't a big deal and can easily be substituted yeah, ok.

This is how absurd your thinking is. You're completely ignorant to the fact that there is something to gain by partnering with Israel. Israel has loads of Middle East intelligence. U.S. army generals have admitted that they owe more to Israeli intelligence than they do to the VIA and NSA. Israel has innovative technology patents and Israeli drones were used by the West in Afghanistan and Iraq. Israel is the only country in the Middle East which is stable. Israel is right in the middle too, even its location is strategic for any superpower. fukk sympathy, any super power in the world has a lot to gain by maintaining ties with Israel. You have to be completely ignorant on world affairs to not see why China couldn't have more leverage by replacing the U.S. as an ally.

Identity as an "Israelite" in biblical times is completely different from the identity as an "Israeli" living in the state of Israel today. It's not a matter of me agreeing or disagreeing, it's just a fact. You simplifying it to "israelite without the T!!" is fukking absurd.

Do you even know what an identity is?

An identity is how a person or nation feels regardless of whether they're right or wrong, it is not based on any objective measurement. Jews have identified as Israelis (Israelites) long before Israel was established. It doesn't matter how you feel about that identity, that was their identity, because that's how they identified themselves.

 

[Kritic]

Like I said, I don't give a fukk about your prepared talking points. Everybody here is familiar with the games you play and the direction you try to steer every discussion about the Arab-Israeli conflict.

I already addressed why your whole "Palestinians never existed" line of reasoning by saying it doesn't matter either way. That's the way you want to rationalize things, but it doesn't change the fact that they were there before "Israelis" and have more of a moral claim to the land than a bunch of European nomads who only went there because they were almost exterminated on another continent. You didn't answer my question as to whether those early Zionists would prefer to have their homeland in Europe instead of the Middle East if given the option. I think you know the answer to that though.

If Israel would "survive just fine" without the support of the US they wouldn't have their lobbyists entrenched within our political system making sure that support remains no matter the cost. Please. LOL @ Israel hiding behind China's skirt instead of ours yeah ok.

The Israelites were an ancient group of tribes from a particular region who can't really be completely identified in the present day. It was a religious title both in nature/character, so no, its not just a matter of "dropping the T". An Israeli is a citizen of the state of Israel. A made up identity that is fairly recent....that's why you denigrating Arabs in Israel for calling themselves "Palestinians" is laughable.

rep that man..

 

[Kritic]

I'm saying it doesn't matter. My stance is based on the fact that prior to the holocaust the Jews were living it up in Europe with no intention at all of returning to their so-called "homeland." Those Arabs you are trying to shyt on for calling themselves "Palestinian" were always there. They never left, therefore their claim to the land holds more weight by default. It's common sense.



Ok...





The fact that they were presented with "options" is proof that this whole experiment is some bullshyt that never should have occurred in the first place. What other people on earth have been afforded this kind of compensation due to an atrocity committed against them? shyt is painfully hilarious when you think about it.

What am I making up though? When Jews were economically well off in Europe and living high off the hog how many of them were flocking to the land that would later become "Israel" due to their yearning to "go back to their ancestral homeland?" Please. They didn't give a fukk about going over there until they started getting killed wholesale in Europe.





I don't know and neither do you. I do know that expecting the Chinese to sympathize with Jews and Jewish interests on the same level as Americans is stupid as fukk. The Chinese don't come from a judeo-christian culture, they don't give a fukk about any of that biblical shyt. The second they don't see a benefit in keeping that bullshyt country afloat they'll cut support ASAP. That's what we should do, but we won't because lobbyists make sure the status quo remains no matter what. But you're in here acting like American support of Israel isn't a big deal and can easily be substituted yeah, ok.





Identity as an "Israelite" in biblical times is completely different from the identity as an "Israeli" living in the state of Israel today. It's not a matter of me agreeing or disagreeing, it's just a fact. You simplifying it to "israelite without the T!!" is fukking absurd.

the jew israeli "identity" is no different than these niccas who call themselves hebrew isrealites. only difference is my hebrew israelite niccas don't have lobbyists in washington and media gunning for them...

niccas think stand in the street will get anything done instead of working themselves in the political and business arena.

 

[qaws23]

Another Cac dead

 

[thekingsmen]

@GetInTheTruck I wouldn't argue too much with TLOL. His arguments aren't even valid and not only aren't accurate, they are historically incorrect.

There are hundreds if not thousands of pictures in the 1800's of Palestinian people who live there. Palestine had a popular port at the time and many people around the area were there for trade. He is assuming the Arab immigration came after Jews were already there. Since "Jews" isn't a race, Palestinian Jews were already there. Population of non-Arab Jews was extremely small population there. They weren't European either.