Self_Born7
SUN OF MAN
yeah man, old school heads try to get you with them old school schisms...
Back in the day... wrong answers?
Any Freemason brehs? :mjpls:
- Thread starter USSInsiders
- Start date
Self_Born7
SUN OF MAN
you get what you put in freemasonry... i work nights to so i dont regularly attend lodge meetings... but there are brothers that came in years after me already sitting in chairs, some in the east already as WM and PM's
YoungbloodThe3rd
Voyager
I know a chick who's friends with them...
They're fukking lames.
They're fukking lames.
Quick gem.
•The 2 Saint John Feasts practiced in Freemasonry is in actuality the Ancient recognition of Summer × Winter Solstice. Except they are no longer realize this and they no longer know the rituals that usher in these 2 astronomical events.
•The 2 Saint John Feasts practiced in Freemasonry is in actuality the Ancient recognition of Summer × Winter Solstice. Except they are no longer realize this and they no longer know the rituals that usher in these 2 astronomical events.
Also By The Study of the Following books you will understand indephtly the connection of Freemasonry to Islam.
You will learn that Islamic Mysticism is closest parents of the Western Mystery Systems. (Research on your own).
• Secret Practice of the Freemasons The Islamic Teachings at The Heart of Alchemy
• A Rosicrucian Notebook
• Principles of Sufism by Nahid Angha (pay close attention to the chapter on Fard)
• The Secret Ritual of The Secret Work of Ancient Order of Nobles of The Mystic Shrine (pay close attention to the preface...carefully)
You will learn that Islamic Mysticism is closest parents of the Western Mystery Systems. (Research on your own).
• Secret Practice of the Freemasons The Islamic Teachings at The Heart of Alchemy
• A Rosicrucian Notebook
• Principles of Sufism by Nahid Angha (pay close attention to the chapter on Fard)
• The Secret Ritual of The Secret Work of Ancient Order of Nobles of The Mystic Shrine (pay close attention to the preface...carefully)
You a traveling man? 
as it pertains to Rosicrucians
The Fama:
The Fama Fraternitatis, published in Kassel in 1614, was purportedly written by Johann
Valentin Andreae (1586-1654), though we’re not really sure. But where did he get this
story? And if it’s fiction, it must me allegorical; and if not, then why not? So, what does
this story tell us, or what is hidden within it? Let’s look at it from a literalistic (sod)
level, and see what might be there.
The Fama gives us the story of Father C.R. (not Christian Rosenkruetz), the original
founder of what is called the Rosicrucian Order. Born in 1378, given to the monastery at
age five in Germany, where he learned Greek and Latin. Took off to visit Jerusalem with
his mentor when he was fourteen or fifteen. He got to Cyprus where his mentor died.
Cyprus was under the control of the Latin church and the Genoese and was a center of
trade in the Mediterranean. He continued on to Damascus, the capital of Syria in hopes
of continuing to Jerusalem. But, somewhere along the way, he got sick.
Damascus at that time was under the Burji dynasty of the Mamluk Sultanate with various
forms of Islam predominating and Eastern Orthodox Christians and Jews in minority.
Roman Catholics came and went, but were often unwelcome, even by local Christians.
There were three hospitals in the city at that time, overseen by Muslim administrators, but
the doctors were a mix of Muslims, Jews and Syriac Orthodox and Oriental Christians.
Remember Sala al-Din’s personal physician was Moshe Maimonides (Rambam), a
Jewish philosopher, scholar and physician, who wrote Guide for the Perplexed still
studied throughout Judaism.
Islam at that time was much more inclusive and tolerant of other religions, a much more
enlightened society than that of the west. Medicine in the Middle East at this time was
decades, if not a full century ahead of what was called medicine in Europe. Some
knowledge did travel west during and just after the Crusades but such knowledge was
slow to take root
detic memory and/or an outstanding intuition, or something just as
distinguishable. The Fama just states that “he won favor among the Turks through
medicine.” The Turks, of course, were the Mamluk Sultanate of Egypt and Turkey that
held sway throughout the Middle East at that time, especially in Syria. How did he “win favor?” Probably by listening and remembering, as well, no doubt, by asking the right questions. According to Abraham Ortelius’ map of the world; the Theatrum Orbis Terrarum (Antwerp, 1570), Damcar, the “secret city of the Queen of Sheba,” is actually Dhamar in Yemen.
There’s no record of a university in Damascus at this time. Doctoring was learned by apprenticeship at the hospital, or with a certain doctor as a mentor. Or, at a university, but not in Damascus … one of the oldest universities at that time was in the city of Damcar in Yemen. Another was in Fez, Morocco; The University of Karueein (Qarawiyyin), founded in 859 CE, the oldest continually operating educational institution in the world, and it’s still open. The other was Al-Azhar University in Cairo, founded in 970 AD, which didn’t teach medicine, just Islamic jurisprudence. The Dhamar university died out centuries ago, and wasn’t reestablished again until 1996. The doctors in Damascus have a prodigy on there hands. No doubt one or more of them wrote their university in Damcar telling them about this kid.
They also talk to CR about going to university which apparently sparked an interest in CR because he gave up his dream to visit Jerusalem, and decided to go to the university. They probably told him that girls were allowed to take classes there as well as guys, which was true, something unheard of in the West. CR was sixteen in 1394 when he got to Dhamar. Yemen (thus Damcar) was never part of the Mamluk Sultanate. When CR got to Yemen it was still under the Rasulid dynasty (1228-1454), which was pretty much Zaydi Shi’i. But much of the people were a mix of Sunni and Shi’i with a large Isma’ili presence.
Sufism was alive and well; Yemen, being at a crossroads for trade, was a center for Sufism and education. The influence of the Sufi saint Ahmad Ibn ‘Alwan (d. 1266) was ever-present (though often a thorn in the side of the ruling Zaydi), and, though most Christians were kicked out of the capital city, they were still everywhere else; and Jews were left alone though they did, like all non-Muslims, have to pay jizya, as also did Zoroastrian and Sabaeans who still had a presence there. And the university, under Ibn ‘Alwan’s influence, had representative teachers from all faiths. (See Religion and Mysticism in Early Islam: Theology and Sufism in Yemen, Muhammad Ali Aziz, I.B. Tauris & Co., Ltd, New York, 2011, for some of these ideas*).
Hesychia: “Stillness” or “Silence;” “The fundamental purpose of “silence” is to provide a setting, and opportunity for the re-identification of one’s person with his or her true, genuine, original identity—the image [and likeness] of God …” (Chirban, p. 289).
“Hesychasts describe two types of consciousness: ego-centered and egotranscendent” (Liester, Mitchell B., Hesychasm: A Christian Path of Transcendence, Quest Magazine, March-April, 200). Theoria: “…theoria as actualization of knowledge…” “The perception or vision of the nous, through which one attains spiritual knowledge. Depending on the level of spiritual growth, theoria has two main stages: it may be either of the inner essences or principles of created beings, or, at a higher stage, of God Himself…” (Kallistos Katafygiotis, Philokalia, Vol. 5). “…a higher form of contemplation than that of the intellect. The concept that theoria is allotted to each unique individual by their capacity to comprehend God is consistent. This is also the tradition of theoria, as taught by St. Symeon the New Theologian (949–1022), that one cannot be a theologian unless one sees the hypostases of God or the uncreated light. This experience cultivates humility, meekness and the love of the human race that God has created. This invisible fire in the heart for humanity is manifest in absolute kindness and love for one's neighbor akin to selfless humility, agape or love, growing from mortification, kenosis, or epiclesis. This agape, or holy fire, is the essence of Orthodoxy” (Clemént, Olivier, The Roots of Christian Mysticism, New City Press, New York, 1995*). “…the vision of God obtains deliverance from death, …” (Irenaeus of Lyons (d. 202), Against Heresies, IV,38,3)
Theosis: “Theosis, deification, or the acquisition of the Holy Spirit, constitutes the aim of the Orthodox Christian life. The life of Jesus Christ serves as the model for theosis. St. Athanasios says, like St. Irenaeus before him, “God became man so that man might become God.” It is said that Christ inaugurates the Kingdom of God on earth which is yet to be fulfilled, fully realized. Theosis, however, is not an eschatological potentiality or mere promise but, rather, is the intense ascent of one who struggles and who is graced to find the Kingdom in this present life …” (Chirban, p. 291). Stages: So, the three main stages for the life of any “Christian” according to the Fathers of the Eastern Church—and this reflects Rosicrucian teachings as well, just in a different language—are:
Given in five stages: 1. Image: St. Basil the Great (330-379) gave us the distinction between “image” and “likeness.” The word “image” refers to the innate, natural quality of the person; the word “likeness,” to that dimension of the person which yearns to become God-like. Therefore, the human being is created with the potential to become God-like. Spiritual growth then is the process from “image” to “likeness” (Chirban, p. 286). “Image” then is the man on the street, ego-centered … 2. Metanoia (conversion). [Conscious commitment to spiritual growth.] This is the stage where one usually finds oneself at rock bottom, and discovers that what he or she’s been doing in life just isn’t working, and discovers that there just might be a better path. Even if it’s just the decision to find that path. 3. Praxis, Ascesis, Apatheia (purification or transformation). [Apatheia = detachment = ego transcendence]. Walking the Path. “Praxis is a spiritual method for purifying the part of the soul that is concerned with the passions” (Evagrius of Pontus [d. 399 in Egypt], Practical Treatise, 78 SC 171, p. 666). 4. Light (illumination) [Theoria].
This brings about “the power of discrimination, scrutinizing all the thoughts and actions of a man, distinguishes and sets aside everything that is base and not pleasing to God, and keeps him free from delusion” (St. John Cassian, On the Holy Fathers of Sketis. In The Philokalia, pp. 98-99). [Sketis is the Monastery of St. Macarius, Wadi Natrun, Egypt.] We can now “see” as mentioned in Hebrews 11:1. “Spiritual vision … that justifies, for only this higher faith [faith based on experience] surpasses the works of the law (Romans 3:28).
It is this that 1. Changes the heart, 2. Leads to substantial changes in being, 3. “moves mountains,” 4. Leads to salvation …” (Amis, Robin, A Different Christianity, Praxis Institute Press, Chicago, 2008*). “Whoever passes from ascesis to inner freedom is able to contemplate in the Holy Spirit the truth of creatures and things. It is as if he passed from the flesh of Christ to his soul” (Maximus the Confessor [d. 662], Ambigua, PG 91,1360). 5. Theosis (Union, Perfection). (Chirban, John T., Developmental Stages in Eastern Orthodox Christianity.) “The deified person, while remaining completely human in nature, both in body and soul, becomes wholly God in both body and soul, through grace and the divine brightness of the beatifying glory that permeates the whole person” (Maximus the Confessor, Ambigua, PG 91,1088).
The Fama:
The Fama Fraternitatis, published in Kassel in 1614, was purportedly written by Johann
Valentin Andreae (1586-1654), though we’re not really sure. But where did he get this
story? And if it’s fiction, it must me allegorical; and if not, then why not? So, what does
this story tell us, or what is hidden within it? Let’s look at it from a literalistic (sod)
level, and see what might be there.
The Fama gives us the story of Father C.R. (not Christian Rosenkruetz), the original
founder of what is called the Rosicrucian Order. Born in 1378, given to the monastery at
age five in Germany, where he learned Greek and Latin. Took off to visit Jerusalem with
his mentor when he was fourteen or fifteen. He got to Cyprus where his mentor died.
Cyprus was under the control of the Latin church and the Genoese and was a center of
trade in the Mediterranean. He continued on to Damascus, the capital of Syria in hopes
of continuing to Jerusalem. But, somewhere along the way, he got sick.
Damascus at that time was under the Burji dynasty of the Mamluk Sultanate with various
forms of Islam predominating and Eastern Orthodox Christians and Jews in minority.
Roman Catholics came and went, but were often unwelcome, even by local Christians.
There were three hospitals in the city at that time, overseen by Muslim administrators, but
the doctors were a mix of Muslims, Jews and Syriac Orthodox and Oriental Christians.
Remember Sala al-Din’s personal physician was Moshe Maimonides (Rambam), a
Jewish philosopher, scholar and physician, who wrote Guide for the Perplexed still
studied throughout Judaism.
Islam at that time was much more inclusive and tolerant of other religions, a much more
enlightened society than that of the west. Medicine in the Middle East at this time was
decades, if not a full century ahead of what was called medicine in Europe. Some
knowledge did travel west during and just after the Crusades but such knowledge was
slow to take root
detic memory and/or an outstanding intuition, or something just as
distinguishable. The Fama just states that “he won favor among the Turks through
medicine.” The Turks, of course, were the Mamluk Sultanate of Egypt and Turkey that
held sway throughout the Middle East at that time, especially in Syria. How did he “win favor?” Probably by listening and remembering, as well, no doubt, by asking the right questions. According to Abraham Ortelius’ map of the world; the Theatrum Orbis Terrarum (Antwerp, 1570), Damcar, the “secret city of the Queen of Sheba,” is actually Dhamar in Yemen.
There’s no record of a university in Damascus at this time. Doctoring was learned by apprenticeship at the hospital, or with a certain doctor as a mentor. Or, at a university, but not in Damascus … one of the oldest universities at that time was in the city of Damcar in Yemen. Another was in Fez, Morocco; The University of Karueein (Qarawiyyin), founded in 859 CE, the oldest continually operating educational institution in the world, and it’s still open. The other was Al-Azhar University in Cairo, founded in 970 AD, which didn’t teach medicine, just Islamic jurisprudence. The Dhamar university died out centuries ago, and wasn’t reestablished again until 1996. The doctors in Damascus have a prodigy on there hands. No doubt one or more of them wrote their university in Damcar telling them about this kid.
They also talk to CR about going to university which apparently sparked an interest in CR because he gave up his dream to visit Jerusalem, and decided to go to the university. They probably told him that girls were allowed to take classes there as well as guys, which was true, something unheard of in the West. CR was sixteen in 1394 when he got to Dhamar. Yemen (thus Damcar) was never part of the Mamluk Sultanate. When CR got to Yemen it was still under the Rasulid dynasty (1228-1454), which was pretty much Zaydi Shi’i. But much of the people were a mix of Sunni and Shi’i with a large Isma’ili presence.
Sufism was alive and well; Yemen, being at a crossroads for trade, was a center for Sufism and education. The influence of the Sufi saint Ahmad Ibn ‘Alwan (d. 1266) was ever-present (though often a thorn in the side of the ruling Zaydi), and, though most Christians were kicked out of the capital city, they were still everywhere else; and Jews were left alone though they did, like all non-Muslims, have to pay jizya, as also did Zoroastrian and Sabaeans who still had a presence there. And the university, under Ibn ‘Alwan’s influence, had representative teachers from all faiths. (See Religion and Mysticism in Early Islam: Theology and Sufism in Yemen, Muhammad Ali Aziz, I.B. Tauris & Co., Ltd, New York, 2011, for some of these ideas*).
Hesychia: “Stillness” or “Silence;” “The fundamental purpose of “silence” is to provide a setting, and opportunity for the re-identification of one’s person with his or her true, genuine, original identity—the image [and likeness] of God …” (Chirban, p. 289).
“Hesychasts describe two types of consciousness: ego-centered and egotranscendent” (Liester, Mitchell B., Hesychasm: A Christian Path of Transcendence, Quest Magazine, March-April, 200). Theoria: “…theoria as actualization of knowledge…” “The perception or vision of the nous, through which one attains spiritual knowledge. Depending on the level of spiritual growth, theoria has two main stages: it may be either of the inner essences or principles of created beings, or, at a higher stage, of God Himself…” (Kallistos Katafygiotis, Philokalia, Vol. 5). “…a higher form of contemplation than that of the intellect. The concept that theoria is allotted to each unique individual by their capacity to comprehend God is consistent. This is also the tradition of theoria, as taught by St. Symeon the New Theologian (949–1022), that one cannot be a theologian unless one sees the hypostases of God or the uncreated light. This experience cultivates humility, meekness and the love of the human race that God has created. This invisible fire in the heart for humanity is manifest in absolute kindness and love for one's neighbor akin to selfless humility, agape or love, growing from mortification, kenosis, or epiclesis. This agape, or holy fire, is the essence of Orthodoxy” (Clemént, Olivier, The Roots of Christian Mysticism, New City Press, New York, 1995*). “…the vision of God obtains deliverance from death, …” (Irenaeus of Lyons (d. 202), Against Heresies, IV,38,3)
Theosis: “Theosis, deification, or the acquisition of the Holy Spirit, constitutes the aim of the Orthodox Christian life. The life of Jesus Christ serves as the model for theosis. St. Athanasios says, like St. Irenaeus before him, “God became man so that man might become God.” It is said that Christ inaugurates the Kingdom of God on earth which is yet to be fulfilled, fully realized. Theosis, however, is not an eschatological potentiality or mere promise but, rather, is the intense ascent of one who struggles and who is graced to find the Kingdom in this present life …” (Chirban, p. 291). Stages: So, the three main stages for the life of any “Christian” according to the Fathers of the Eastern Church—and this reflects Rosicrucian teachings as well, just in a different language—are:
Given in five stages: 1. Image: St. Basil the Great (330-379) gave us the distinction between “image” and “likeness.” The word “image” refers to the innate, natural quality of the person; the word “likeness,” to that dimension of the person which yearns to become God-like. Therefore, the human being is created with the potential to become God-like. Spiritual growth then is the process from “image” to “likeness” (Chirban, p. 286). “Image” then is the man on the street, ego-centered … 2. Metanoia (conversion). [Conscious commitment to spiritual growth.] This is the stage where one usually finds oneself at rock bottom, and discovers that what he or she’s been doing in life just isn’t working, and discovers that there just might be a better path. Even if it’s just the decision to find that path. 3. Praxis, Ascesis, Apatheia (purification or transformation). [Apatheia = detachment = ego transcendence]. Walking the Path. “Praxis is a spiritual method for purifying the part of the soul that is concerned with the passions” (Evagrius of Pontus [d. 399 in Egypt], Practical Treatise, 78 SC 171, p. 666). 4. Light (illumination) [Theoria].
This brings about “the power of discrimination, scrutinizing all the thoughts and actions of a man, distinguishes and sets aside everything that is base and not pleasing to God, and keeps him free from delusion” (St. John Cassian, On the Holy Fathers of Sketis. In The Philokalia, pp. 98-99). [Sketis is the Monastery of St. Macarius, Wadi Natrun, Egypt.] We can now “see” as mentioned in Hebrews 11:1. “Spiritual vision … that justifies, for only this higher faith [faith based on experience] surpasses the works of the law (Romans 3:28).
It is this that 1. Changes the heart, 2. Leads to substantial changes in being, 3. “moves mountains,” 4. Leads to salvation …” (Amis, Robin, A Different Christianity, Praxis Institute Press, Chicago, 2008*). “Whoever passes from ascesis to inner freedom is able to contemplate in the Holy Spirit the truth of creatures and things. It is as if he passed from the flesh of Christ to his soul” (Maximus the Confessor [d. 662], Ambigua, PG 91,1360). 5. Theosis (Union, Perfection). (Chirban, John T., Developmental Stages in Eastern Orthodox Christianity.) “The deified person, while remaining completely human in nature, both in body and soul, becomes wholly God in both body and soul, through grace and the divine brightness of the beatifying glory that permeates the whole person” (Maximus the Confessor, Ambigua, PG 91,1088).
trap101-ETHout-Allegri-In
All Star
in
KingsOfKings
♟️ GRANDMASTERS ♟️
I went to an HBCU. I used to have a friend who was a Mason. Matter of Fact there were mad Masons on campus with that G on their shirts and on cars. I never knew what that G meant. I remember this one kid who was mad big and fat looked like a Black King Kong Bundy I forgot his name. Anyway I asked my friend what that G meant and he wouldn’t tell me. Everyday I would ask him and he said he can’t King Kong Bundy would fukk him up and sit on him if he told me 
I was like cmon man just tell me and he wouldn’t. So this led to a big argument and we never spoke again..
I always felt that Mason shyt was a scary ass cult.
Why wouldn’t he tell me what the G meant
I was like cmon man just tell me and he wouldn’t. So this led to a big argument and we never spoke again..I always felt that Mason shyt was a scary ass cult.
Why wouldn’t he tell me what the G meant
He was just being scary.I went to an HBCU. I used to have a friend who was a Mason. Matter of Fact there were mad Masons on campus with that G on their shirts and on cars. I never knew what that G meant. I remember this one kid who was mad big and fat looked like a Black King Kong Bundy I forgot his name. Anyway I asked my friend what that G meant and he wouldn’t tell me. Everyday I would ask him and he said he can’t King Kong Bundy would fukk him up and sit on him if he told me
I always felt that Mason shyt was a scary ass cult.
Why wouldn’t he tell me what the G meant
It's largely a social and professional club.
I have a lot of family that are PH Masons. It's just like dinner clubs and fraternities - people love secret clubs and being in an in-group, and when you're a Black person whose a member of a historically Black organization there's always pride and history tied up in it. Some people get spooked because they have no idea what it is or what it's about, or they get tricked into thinking it's a boogeyman by others.
You can scroll on this site and see how random people who know nothing about Sigma Pi Phi claim insane things about the Boule, or masonry.
It's just a group of people (in this case older Black men) that like to get together, socialize, work to build things, and talk about the history and specific topics. They span different regions, professions, interests, etc. Even the ceremonies and things are just old, kind of corny traditions that carry some history too.
IN WESTERN MYSTERY SCHOOLS MAINLY ROSICRUCIANISM THE INITIATE IS INTRODUCED TO THE STUDY OF THE OPERA OF PARSIFAL AND THE TALE OF THE GRAIL AND CHALICE. THE OPERA HOLDS TREMENDOUS SYMBOLISM HIDING THE MAGICAL AND QABBALISTIC SCIENCES. THOUGH IT HAS BEEN MADE POPULAR IN WESTERN SYSTEMS. ITS TRUE ORIGIN IS THE EASTERN SUFIC SYSTEMS.
“The radiance of the streamers emanating from the shoulder blades has, when unfolded, often been compared by Sufi’s with a mantle of light. In the Parsifal legends, it was because there were holes in the mantle of Anfortas that the evil forces of the night were able to attack him.” Pir Vilayat Inayat Khan. The Ecstasy Beyond Knowing: A Manual of Meditation. 2014. p47
“The radiance of the streamers emanating from the shoulder blades has, when unfolded, often been compared by Sufi’s with a mantle of light. In the Parsifal legends, it was because there were holes in the mantle of Anfortas that the evil forces of the night were able to attack him.” Pir Vilayat Inayat Khan. The Ecstasy Beyond Knowing: A Manual of Meditation. 2014. p47
An Analysis of Sufi Influences in Freemasonry, by Quayshaun Carter
"Some scholars theorize that many of the esoteric impulses of Europe, from the Middles Ages on, point to Sufi influence. The Templar Knights may very well have patterned their function after the Islamic spiritual military forces known as The Assassins. The Assassins were first known as the Nizari Isma’ilis. They were most known for their religious tolerance, devotion to the Shiite principle of direct communion with God, and the strategic use of selective political murder to eliminate military threats to their community, while maintaining the existence of the futuwwāt. In Islamic civilization, the futuwwāt (“spiritual chivalry”) were military and economic orders similar to the knightly fraternities and guilds of medieval Europe. Combining service or, craftwork in the military or government with spiritual discipline, these orders have played a major role in Islamic history by drawing their members more fully into the spiritual life and ethos of Islam (the craft orders still survive in some areas of the Islamic world). On August 8, 1164, Hasan II proclaimed the Qiyama, the Resurrection, the Day of Judgment, the immanence of the Imam. He ordered the overturning of all outward observances of Islam in favor of a Gnostic enlightenment, a heaven on earth. He declared that Nizari Ismailis had entered a state of perfection in which the experience of God within was an ascertained reality."
"Some scholars theorize that many of the esoteric impulses of Europe, from the Middles Ages on, point to Sufi influence. The Templar Knights may very well have patterned their function after the Islamic spiritual military forces known as The Assassins. The Assassins were first known as the Nizari Isma’ilis. They were most known for their religious tolerance, devotion to the Shiite principle of direct communion with God, and the strategic use of selective political murder to eliminate military threats to their community, while maintaining the existence of the futuwwāt. In Islamic civilization, the futuwwāt (“spiritual chivalry”) were military and economic orders similar to the knightly fraternities and guilds of medieval Europe. Combining service or, craftwork in the military or government with spiritual discipline, these orders have played a major role in Islamic history by drawing their members more fully into the spiritual life and ethos of Islam (the craft orders still survive in some areas of the Islamic world). On August 8, 1164, Hasan II proclaimed the Qiyama, the Resurrection, the Day of Judgment, the immanence of the Imam. He ordered the overturning of all outward observances of Islam in favor of a Gnostic enlightenment, a heaven on earth. He declared that Nizari Ismailis had entered a state of perfection in which the experience of God within was an ascertained reality."
I got asked to join... 
Them freeman nikkas some faggits