An oral Coli history of "LeBron's game won't age"

[Gangstar8]

Lebron is finished.

 

[Juggalo Fred]

Lebron is finished.

He's scoring 28+ ppg


Lakers are finished though

 

[Biscayne]

Lebron was drafted in 2003 why do people keep saying he's from this era?

This thread is classic as well

Agreed. He played against prime Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, TMac, Vince, KG, Dirk. At this point, LeBron is relatively closer to 1990s era basketball than he is to the modern era. He came up under the 90s playing style in his formative years. He came up under he pre-run and gun and small ball years. He came up under the traditional big man, traditional offense era. Dude is 36!!! He had to learn how to shoot the 3 ball, learn how to play the space and pace offense, learn how to play the 5 when going small. He came from traditional basketball. This current era is a completely different era from him.

 

[UpAndComing]

Agreed. He played against prime Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, TMac, Vince, KG, Dirk. At this point, LeBron is relatively closer to 1990s era basketball than he is to the modern era. He came up under the 90s playing style in his formative years. He came up under he pre-run and gun and small ball years. He came up under the traditional big man, traditional offense era. Dude is 36!!! He had to learn how to shoot the 3 ball, learn how to play the space and pace offense, learn how to play the 5 when going small. He came from traditional basketball. This current era is a completely different era from him.

No offense, but this is a lazy description. No way in hell is LeBron "Closer to the 90s era" just because he played against the 2000s players in their prime

The 2003-2006 NBA Draft class (LeBron, Carmelo, Wade, Bosh, Dwight, Chris Paul, Aldridge, Rondo, Lowry) are in their own era. By the time they were in their 3rd year in the league, the dominant Big Men era was already phasing out, and the low scoring low pace 75-78 scores were already phasing out as well. There was a time Yao and Dwight were the only legit centers in their prime, Shaq, KG, and Duncan were exiting their prime, etc

Steve Nash won MVP in 2005 with the "7 Seconds or Less" Phoenix Suns era for God's sakes lol

 

[Biscayne]

No offense, but this is a lazy description. No way in hell is LeBron "Closer to the 90s era" just because he played against the 2000s players in their prime

The 2003-2006 NBA Draft class (LeBron, Carmelo, Wade, Bosh, Dwight, Chris Paul, Aldridge, Rondo, Lowry) are in their own era. By the time they were in their 3rd year in the league, the dominant Big Men era was already phasing out, and the low scoring low pace 75-78 scores were already phasing out as well. There was a time Yao and Dwight were the only legit centers in their prime, Shaq, KG, and Duncan were exiting their prime, etc

Steve Nash won MVP in 2005 with the "7 Seconds or Less" Phoenix Suns era for God's sakes lol

That 2005 Suns team was considered innovative and ahead of their time. They were not considered the norm. The small ball era and “modern era” wasn’t normalized until Bron went to Miami and they moved Bron to the 4 and moved Bosh to the 5 and forced him to shoot 3’s. That was the beginning of positionless small ball and putting emphasis on the 3 point shot. When Miami added Shane battier at the 4 and sometimes the 5. Bron literally had to become a better 3 point shooter when he came to Miami. Miami won a title in 2006 with Shaq and Zo and traditional basketball. Wade was from the same era. How you play ball is wholly influenced by who you grew up watching and emulating. And the 2003 draft class were in HS and college throughout the late 90s and early 00s. I can confidently say LeBrons game and how he learned to play is more in line with the 90s. Of course, he EVOLVED his game to usher in the modern era of basketball. Lebron and many millenial players came in at the confluence of eras, but they were largely influenced by 90s ball. LeBron had seen enough of low scoring, and tough defensive basketball to be apart of that era. He beat the 2007 Pistons to get to the finals. But everything about the modern game that lebron thrived at, he had to learn and transition WITH it. That doesn’t mean he was OF it. Dwight, Timmy D, and other bigs were still closer to traditional and offenses were still running through them to a degree, really up until the late 00s. The “modern era” didn’t really begin until 2011-2012.

 

[UpAndComing]

That 2005 Suns team was considered innovative and ahead of their time. They were not considered the norm. The small ball era and “modern era” wasn’t normalized until Bron went to Miami and they moved Bron to the 4 and moved Bosh to the 5 and forced him to shoot 3’s. That was the beginning of positionless small ball and putting emphasis on the 3 point shot. When Miami added Shane battier at the 4 and sometimes the 5. Bron literally had to become a better 3 point shooter when he came to Miami. Miami won a title in 2006 with Shaq and Zo and traditional basketball. Wade was from the same era. How you play ball is wholly influenced by who you grew up watching and emulating. And the 2003 draft class were in HS and college throughout the late 90s and early 00s. I can confidently say LeBrons game and how he learned to play is more in line with the 90s. Of course, he EVOLVED his game to usher in the modern era of basketball. Lebron and many millenial players came in at the confluence of eras, but they were largely influenced by 90s ball. LeBron had seen enough of low scoring, and tough defensive basketball to be apart of that era. He beat the 2007 Pistons to get to the finals. But everything about the modern game that lebron thrived at, he had to learn and transition WITH it. That doesn’t mean he was OF it. Dwight, Timmy D, and other bigs were still closer to traditional and offenses were still running through them to a degree, really up until the late 00s. The “modern era” didn’t really begin until 2011-2012.

Breh stop lol

2005 Suns had that small ball style
2007 Warriors with Baron Davis, Monta Ellis, Jason Richardson, Stephen Jackson had that small ball style
2007 Mavs had that same style
2007 Spurs had Duncan moved to the Center spot and Tony Parker being the center of the offense which made them play faster
2005-2007 Wizards with Gilbert Arenas, Antione Jamison, Caron Butler played that small ball style
And you had the 2002-2004 Jason Kidd led Nets who went to the Finals twice played that small ball run and gun style

 

[Biscayne]

Breh stop lol

2005 Suns had that small ball style
2007 Warriors with Baron Davis, Monta Ellis, Jason Richardson, Stephen Jackson had that small ball style
2007 Mavs had that same style
2007 Spurs had Duncan moved to the Center spot and Tony Parker being the center of the offense which made them play faster
2005-2007 Wizards with Gilbert Arenas, Antione Jamison, Caron Butler played that small ball style
And you had the 2002-2004 Jason Kidd led Nets who went to the Finals twice played that small ball run and gun style

Those were fun teams because it wasn’t normal for that era. Scores were low, and any team that could get out front and run and gun was considered a “fun” team to watch. It wasn’t considered winning basketball though. Those teams had their ceilings, and nobody were putting those teams above teams that played with traditional bigs.

The transition didn’t officially happen until Miami went small and positionless and went to 4 straight finals and won two. Folks were still not trusting Miami playing that small style until they actually won it all in 2012. Even though, YES the Mavs made it to the finals in 2006, the very next year the 2007 Mavs lost in the first round, and many were questioning whether the Mavs style and questioning if Dirk would ever net them a title.

They were literally questioning Dirks legacy via his style of play. Anytime you had a small ball team with any sort of success, they always were either a fun regular szn watch who fizzled out in the playoffs, or you had those anomalous Nets teams that went about as far as Jason Kidd could take them, and then get their asses whooped in the finals against the Spurs(traditional big) and Lakers(traditional big). The whole “The eastern conference is weaker than the west” argument literally came form the fact that the nets were able to make it to consecutive finals playing small ball in the east. The arguments for the west being superior to the east was literally spearheaded by the fact that the West had a gang of traditional bigs who they’d run their offenses through, and when they’d face the eastern conference champs, the eastern team would have no answer for the Western conference’s traditional bigs.

They always used to say the west playoffs was a blood bath. Shaq would have his best series in the finals because the east didn’t have any bigs who could match him. Those mid-00s wizards teams were getting their ass handed to them by Wade and the heat. You’re proving my point. Real success via positionless small ball didn’t begin until Miami was beating teams like Boston, Chicago, San Antonio, and forcing these teams to go small and sit their one dimensional defensive bigs. Guys like Perkins damn near became unplayable against Miami. Miami would play the opposing bigs off the court. You had to have more lateral quickness as a big, because in Miami, guys like Shane Battier would be playing the 5, and would drag the opposing big outside outside the paint. That formula wasn’t winning teams titles before Spo and Miami made it work in 2012. That ushered in the modern era. And EVEN then, you had guys like Charles Barkley saying Miami was “too small” to beat the bulls in 2011.

 

[Professor Emeritus]

Breh stop lol

2005 Suns had that small ball style
2007 Warriors with Baron Davis, Monta Ellis, Jason Richardson, Stephen Jackson had that small ball style
2007 Mavs had that same style
2007 Spurs had Duncan moved to the Center spot and Tony Parker being the center of the offense which made them play faster
2005-2007 Wizards with Gilbert Arenas, Antione Jamison, Caron Butler played that small ball style
And you had the 2002-2004 Jason Kidd led Nets who went to the Finals twice played that small ball run and gun style

Claiming the 2004 Nets who played at a fukking 89 pace were a "run and gun" team? Seriously? That's as slow as the slowest Bulls team MJ ever played for.

You're being revisionist as hell with the 2007 Spurs. That team started 7' Francisco Elson and 6'10" Fabricio Oberto at center in ADDITION to having 6'11" Duncan at power forward and none of the three of them shot the 3pt. In the playoffs that was 32 minutes/game, the other 15 minutes were Duncan at center and 6'10" Horry at PF which stretches the floor more but still ain't small ball on any planet.

All the other teams you mentioned were aberrations and known as "small jump-shooting teams that can't win". Even as late as the 2015 Warriors they were still tagged with that "jump-shooting teams can't win" label and people would specifically cite those Suns teams and others as examples.

If you want to take a few random aberrations you could claim that the 90s were the three-point shooting era cause of Houston and Orlando or the run-and-gun era cause of Denver Dallas Golden State.

 

[Biscayne]

Traditional ball died a stubborn death. Miami ushered in the small ball, run and gun era. And golden state took it to new heights.

LeBron James' Basketball Legacy Will Be Small Ball

 

[Biscayne]

But make no mistake, LeBron and that 2003 draft class(Bosh in particular) had to LEARN how to play that style. They had to trust Spo and his vision to make it work. Again, that’s what I meant when I said that LeBron is relatively closer or just as close to his 90s predecessors and 00s contemporaries than he is to the players in the todays era, because even though LeBron ushered in the modern era, he began his career learning from the 90s all stars and playing up under and playing wit the 00s all stars who were all drafted in the 90s. Bron, Bosh, and Wade didn’t come into the league stressing he importance of being an efficient 3 point shooter. Compared to the GenZ players of today who grew up watching guys like Bosh actually having to stretch his game in reel time when they were kids in 2012..Many of the GenZ class came in with the three ball in their arsenal already. That’s why Ben Simmons inability to shoot is seen as an outlier and he’s seen as being a hindrance in today’s league. @UpAndComing

 

[Professor Emeritus]

Low key tough to claim MJ is defined by the "dominant big man era" when he never once played with a dominant big or defeated a dominant big man in the Finals. Who is the best center in an MJ Finals....rookie Vlade Divac?

No offense, but this is a lazy description. No way in hell is LeBron "Closer to the 90s era" just because he played against the 2000s players in their prime

The 2003-2006 NBA Draft class (LeBron, Carmelo, Wade, Bosh, Dwight, Chris Paul, Aldridge, Rondo, Lowry) are in their own era. By the time they were in their 3rd year in the league, the dominant Big Men era was already phasing out, and the low scoring low pace 75-78 scores were already phasing out as well.

Bron actually played most of his career in a slower league than MJ, not a faster one.

LeBron's first 3 years in Miami they were still playing at the same pace as MJ's second threepeat in Chicago, and those were the slowest-paced years of Jordan's entire Bulls tenure. The NBA didn't go over a 94 pace until 2016, the 13th season of LeBron's career.

By comparison, MJ never played UNDER a 94 pace until he came back from retirement in 1996.

There was a time Yao and Dwight were the only legit centers in their prime, Shaq, KG, and Duncan were exiting their prime, etc

Steve Nash won MVP in 2005 with the "7 Seconds or Less" Phoenix Suns era for God's sakes lol

Traditional centers got screwed in the NBA by the combination of zone defenses (too easy to double-team a slow-developing post play) and increased athleticism across all positions. That doesn't mean they were playing small ball, it just means they stopped feeding the big man in the post. But the big was was still there.

Here are the starting bigs for every NBA title team and/or team Bron faced for his first 10 seasons:

2004: Wallace and Wallace
2005: Mohammed and Duncan
2006: Shaq and Haslem
2007: Oberto and Duncan
2008: Perkins and Garnett
2009: Bynum and Gasol
2010: Bynum and Gasol
2011: Chandler and Dirk
2012: Perkins and Ibaka
2013: Splitter and Duncan

Those are all true big pairs with ten straight years of big strong non-shooting centers. There's no small-ball there at all. Small ball didn't win any titles until 2012 when Bosh's injury caused Bron to move down to PF and then Bosh came back as a 5 instead of a 4. Spurs started doing the same shyt experimenting with Diaw in the frontcourt alongside Duncan in 2013 and then did it a ton more in 2014 to huge success. Then the Warriors discovered the Death Lineup and it was all over after that.

Bron was already well into his prime before anyone in the league figured out that small-ball could work in the playoffs and was almost out of his prime before small ball took over. As late as 2015 the Cavs were trading for Timofey Mosgov thinking that was the big move to get them over the hump.

 

[Biscayne]

Low key tough to claim MJ is defined by the "dominant big man era" when he never once played with a dominant big or defeated a dominant big man in the Finals. Who is the best center in an MJ Finals....rookie Vlade Divac?




Bron actually played most of his career in a slower league than MJ, not a faster one.

LeBron's first 3 years in Miami they were still playing at the same pace as MJ's second threepeat in Chicago, and those were the slowest-paced years of Jordan's entire Bulls tenure. The NBA didn't go over a 94 pace until 2016, the 13th season of LeBron's career.

By comparison, MJ never played UNDER a 94 pace until he came back from retirement in 1996.






Traditional centers got screwed in the NBA by the combination of zone defenses (too easy to double-team a slow-developing post play) and increased athleticism across all positions. That doesn't mean they were playing small ball, it just means they stopped feeding the big man in the post. But the big was was still there.

Here are the starting bigs for every NBA title team and/or team Bron faced for his first 10 seasons:

2004: Wallace and Wallace
2005: Mohammed and Duncan
2006: Shaq and Haslem
2007: Oberto and Duncan
2008: Perkins and Garnett
2009: Bynum and Gasol
2010: Bynum and Gasol
2011: Chandler and Dirk
2012: Perkins and Ibaka
2013: Splitter and Duncan

Those are all true big pairs with ten straight years of big strong non-shooting centers. There's no small-ball there at all. Small ball didn't win any titles until 2012 when Bosh's injury caused Bron to move down to PF and then Bosh came back as a 5 instead of a 4. Spurs started doing the same shyt experimenting with Diaw in the frontcourt alongside Duncan in 2013 and then did it a ton more in 2014 to huge success. Then the Warriors discovered the Death Lineup and it was all over after that.

Bron was already well into his prime before anyone in the league figured out that small-ball could work in the playoffs and was almost out of his prime before small ball took over. As late as 2015 the Cavs were trading for Timofey Mosgov thinking that was the big move to get them over the hump.

That’s why I laugh when ppl associate 00s basketball with this current high paced era. They were playing slow, grind it out basketball up until the 2010s. The tough slow “90s era” lasted longer than people want to admit, because of the anti LeBron arguments that they want to shape. LeBron wouldn’t survive in the defensively tougher 90s.

That’s like when Rasheed Wallace claimed LeBron wouldn’t have success in his era, even though LeBron literally beat Rasheed Wallace in his era in 2007. And he faced the 00 Pistons when he first came in the league in 2003. They won the title the year he was drafted. He’s of the same era.

 

[KnickstapeCity]

Breh stop lol

“Breh stop lol”





Didn't know nikkas still said “lol.”

 

[Joe Sixpack]

@Dwight Howard fascinates me

Is he just the GOAT troll in the history of the internet or is he really a total and complete idiot?

Great job @Rhakim This took alot of work but it needed to be done....

 

[Malcolmxxx_23]

26 8 8
Not bad in your 20th year