Ahmad Shah Massoud appreciation thread - true Afghan hero

[Techniec]

Come to prop up your taliban friends?

gather up your crayons son. grown folks are talking

 

[Techniec]

This was a supremely difficult situation and I guess your opinion on it will depend on your ethnic bias/ opinion on Mazari and Akbari's place within the Wahdat during the time. I think it's fair to point out, though, that third party groups (and I think this is partially reproduced in the wikipedia article) all seem to agree that Massoud remained a voice of moderation and conscience throughout the whole process and was indeed worried about the ethnic element and potential atrocities. He wanted to deal with it as a political conflict and not let his allies go into ethnic cleansing mode. Massoud was also the one who tried to prevent the conflict by mediating between Sayyaf and Mazari in the first place. Without him, the situation may have ended up much worse, imo.

In addition, Wahdat was clapping up civilians left and right and some of their Hazaras were even engaging in ethnic cleansing of their own, which seems to be pretty well-documented.

I have absolutely no love for Wahdat. They really pioneered some of the more brutal behaviour, which again from their perspective, being Shia Hazaras they had to eat alooot of shyyt over the past 200 yrs, its understandable though certainly not justified. And I know that shiit had the Iranians and Saudis all in the mix. Ive had countless debates with Massoud supporters who have articulated the same argument that you did, which is:

a- He had to move against Wahdat militarily- true
b- he tried to avoid ethnicizing the conflict- nothing suggests that he sought to ethnicize the conflict, so true on that front

The problem is to the average Afghan, no one cares what a leaders intentions are or were, rather what were the men under his command doing? And the men under Massouds command raped and pillaged with the best of them. You can certainly absolve him of direct personal involvement, but on this sole count he loses any credibility as a "leader"

I don't know much about this situation, but it does seem to me like he was a very different man before the Soviet invasion.

I agree, and I believe even Massoud himself regretted his actions or at least showed some inclination to do so. However, to alot of people, he was a vagabond who had a lust for power back when it was unjustified.

Yes, but you say "under his watch" like he could legitimately prevent those things from happening on the ground level. At least he wanted society to reach the place where that wouldn't happen. I also think it's unfair to assume that because women were more regulated under the Taliban, they weren't getting raped and abused. There was a thread here just a day ago about a woman getting publicly stoned to death by the Taliban for "adultery" (getting used by two men and then killed for it.)

Hey, the Taliban are no womens rights activist, and like I said, my views have tempered over the years. Id give my right hand to have a Massoud in power today

The problem isnt so much Massoud the individual. Its what he represents. He represents the Islamization of Afghanistan, he represents the dog days of the 90s civil war. He represents the ethnicization of Afghan politics. He represents historical revisionism (no one today remembers the side deals he used to cut with the Soviet, or the fact that his group Jamiat E Islami when in power, actually waived any right to reparations against Russia for the Soviet invasion, and in fact ended up being a patron of Russian/Indian and Iranian intelligence)

The post 2001 situation has drastically made things worse a la his legacy. All of his cronies are the elite of Afghanistan today. Drug running, rapists who have shed alooot of Pashtun blood. No one is trying to remember that Massoud was a Poet who drank green tea. His face is everywhere in Kabul, he represents the trash that now run the country. Its a shame, and for all we know, hes probably turning in his grave. But perception is a motherfuker.

But hey, its Afghanistan, nothing is black or white. I dont judge the man, cuz I could never be in his shoes. But theres been a lot of cockk slobbery with the man, which to alot of Afghans is ridicolous

 

[Gallo]

I have absolutely no love for Wahdat. They really pioneered some of the more brutal behaviour, which again from their perspective, being Shia Hazaras they had to eat alooot of shyyt over the past 200 yrs, its understandable though certainly not justified. And I know that shiit had the Iranians and Saudis all in the mix. Ive had countless debates with Massoud supporters who have articulated the same argument that you did, which is:

a- He had to move against Wahdat militarily- true
b- he tried to avoid ethnicizing the conflict- nothing suggests that he sought to ethnicize the conflict, so true on that front

The problem is to the average Afghan, no one cares what a leaders intentions are or were, rather what were the men under his command doing? And the men under Massouds command raped and pillaged with the best of them. You can certainly absolve him of direct personal involvement, but on this sole count he loses any credibility as a "leader"





I agree, and I believe even Massoud himself regretted his actions or at least showed some inclination to do so. However, to alot of people, he was a vagabond who had a lust for power back when it was unjustified.






Hey, the Taliban are no womens rights activist, and like I said, my views have tempered over the years. Id give my right hand to have a Massoud in power today

The problem isnt so much Massoud the individual. Its what he represents. He represents the Islamization of Afghanistan, he represents the dog days of the 90s civil war. He represents the ethnicization of Afghan politics. He represents historical revisionism (no one today remembers the side deals he used to cut with the Soviet, or the fact that his group Jamiat E Islami when in power, actually waived any right to reparations against Russia for the Soviet invasion, and in fact ended up being a patron of Russian/Indian and Iranian intelligence)

The post 2001 situation has drastically made things worse a la his legacy. All of his cronies are the elite of Afghanistan today. Drug running, rapists who have shed alooot of Pashtun blood. No one is trying to remember that Massoud was a Poet who drank green tea. His face is everywhere in Kabul, he represents the trash that now run the country. Its a shame, and for all we know, hes probably turning in his grave. But perception is a motherfuker.

But hey, its Afghanistan, nothing is black or white. I dont judge the man, cuz I could never be in his shoes. But theres been a lot of cockk slobbery with the man, which to alot of Afghans is ridicolous

Much rather the current drug-running trash running the country than the Taliban. Its not as if there is a better ready-made alternative for that tribal cesspool. And some of your Massoud contentions seem superfluous - like cutting deals with the Indians, that just seems pragmatic to me.

 

[Techniec]

Much rather the current drug-running trash running the country than the Taliban. Its not as if there is a better ready-made alternative for that tribal cesspool. And some of your Massoud contentions seem superfluous - like cutting deals with the Indians, that just seems pragmatic to me.

On the surface, sure. But this is ultimately a very shallow understanding.

As long as the drug running trash run the country, the Taliban lie in the wings, held back by Americans only.

As long as the drug running trash run the country, there actually will be no advancements made whatsoever to move the country away from a situation where the Taliban re emerge

And there were plenty of alternatives, they just didnt jive with what the US over lords had in mind for that country



those drug running trash are getting popped day by day, when shiit hits the fan only half of the remaining trash will actually stick around and fight. The rest are catching the first flight to Dubai

 

[Gallo]

On the surface, sure. But this is ultimately a very shallow understanding.

As long as the drug running trash run the country, the Taliban lie in the wings, held back by Americans only.

As long as the drug running trash run the country, there actually will be no advancements made whatsoever to move the country away from a situation where the Taliban re emerge

And there were plenty of alternatives, they just didnt jive with what the US over lords had in mind for that country



those drug running trash are getting popped day by day, when shiit hits the fan only half of the remaining trash will actually stick around and fight. The rest are catching the first flight to Dubai

What are those alternatives? It seems to me the only alternative is someone else fukking Afghanistan in the ass. Afghanistan is the worlds prison bytch. If its not the US overlords fukking them, someone else will - Pakistan, Iran, Russians, perhaps China in the future. Getting fukked by the US and the current "drug-running" trash is the best choice they have. No one is going to leave Afghanistan alone to sort out their mess, central asia is too important.