Robert Mugabe outchea.

[godkiller]

some good points but most are blinkered. .and being pro black isn't about that..but what u have to understand is there is two types of history...One that is cacwritten and one that is not. There was nno civil war, the so called "civil war" happened after the country was in black power and mugabe knowing he didn't have a vote in southern zimbabwe he had to attack using the national army. A lot of people lost family and friends, imagine how we feel everyday when police kill unarmed people everyday right now in the US of A..This is what was happening..people getting murkedby the army because of the colour of their tongue..all mugabe was doing was silencing the opposition and he did. Joshua nkomo had to form a coalition gvt with him to save some families grief..people wanted to fight on but like someone once said on one of the threads here "you don't bring a knife to an SUV fight"..Mugabe learned good from cacs that supported him..do wateva coz black lives don't matter as long as u in power.

Proof for your assertions? Also, why would cacs try to defend Mugabe by saying it was a civil war? Cacs don't even mention the civil war part in their propaganda. They just say outright Mugabe "killed thousands of Ndebele" as a way to undermine everything he does. So your asserting they would diverge from their normal propaganda and "cac write" Mugabe as anything other than a genocidal maniac doesn't make sense. The cacs themselves write the conflict as a civil war without outright saying so. The Wikipedia article content spells "civil war" but the cac writers never say so. Their duplicity implies it was a civil war.

 

[Lakers Offseason]

@Northern Son is at BEST half Zimbabwean, and we're not even sure he is Zimbabwean at all. We don't know if he ever grew up in Zimbabwe either. Most probably he didn't given the way he types. And, even if he is what he says he is, that does not mean he knows what he's talking about. I have met foreigners who know more about American politics than Americans I know. It's called research and knowledge. According to established academic research, the following people have benefited from Mugabe's land reforms:

"‘In the biggest land reform in Africa, 6,000 white farmers have been replaced by 245,000 Zimbabwean farmers. Zimbabwe’s land reform has not been neat, and huge problems remain. But 245,000 new farmers have received land, and most of them are farming it. They have raised their own standard of living; have already reached production levels of the former white farmers; and with a bit of support, are ready to substantially increase that production.’"

According to Northern Son, either these farmers don't exist or they are all ministers. The article was published in a noted academic journal and has never been retracted. I guess all the African Union leaders believe Mugabe is so bad, that's why he won the Presidency. Are you really taking the ideas of a random Coli poster--who provides no evidence--at heart b/c he says he is half Zimbabwean (or American in terms of American politics)?

You know there are people who spout so-called truths about American politics but actually are misinformed. Before you judge me as wrong, think about the wealth of NON-EVIDENCE @Northern Son has provided for his assertions. If what he says is so obvious and true, why can't he provide even the smallest evidence of it?

To be honest, I have family in South Africa and their opinion on Mugabe aligns closer to what @Northern Son is saying


Part of the reason why there are an influx of undocumented Zimbabweans in SA is because Mugabe has turned Zimbabwe into a shythole.
But again, this is from South Africans, so you gotta understand why they have these opinions too

 

[godkiller]

To be honest, I have family in South Africa and their opinion on Mugabe aligns closer to what @Northern Son is saying


Part of the reason why there are an influx of undocumented Zimbabweans in SA is because Mugabe has turned Zimbabwe into a shythole.
But again, this is from South Africans, so you gotta understand why they have these opinions too

The economy isn't doing well and I never said otherwise. In fact I actually say the economy isn't doing well earlier in this thread because of lack of business, among other things. so what you're saying and what I'm saying in this way doesn't differ. However the economy itself has nothing to do with Mugabe's achievements, whether land reform was right, land reform facts etc. I know for a fact cac Zimbabweans wouldn't give up land except by violence, like Northern Son says, as I have met former Zim cacs and they are racist as shyt. I also know for a fact cacs threw sanctions at Mugabe for land reform, unlike what that Dino says, etc.

 

[skokiaan]

Proof for your Congo War and money lending assertions?

You said said you're only half Zimbabwean and you were raised in the West., You don't know shyt about what happens there regardless. If what you say is right, your evidence will support it so rest of that instead of on claims which don't prove your point and which none may verify anyway.




When cacs employers lose their businesses--their farms--their black employess will be laid off. That's par for course and there's nothing wrong with it from a moral point of view, since well, those cacs should have never been there in the first place. When slavery ended, cacs lost their slave businesses. People were laid off. That's par for the course, yada yada, you get my point. It was still right to end slavery just like it was still right to do land reform. As far as who has benefitted from land reform, these are the established facts:

"‘In the biggest land reform in Africa, 6,000 white farmers have been replaced by 245,000 Zimbabwean farmers. Zimbabwe’s land reform has not been neat, and huge problems remain. But 245,000 new farmers have received land, and most of them are farming it. They have raised their own standard of living; have already reached production levels of the former white farmers; and with a bit of support, are ready to substantially increase that production.’"

^
I suppose there are 245, 000 ministers in Zimbabwe who received land, as you say, oh Zimbabwean knowledge holder. No, idiot, there are 245,000 black Zimbabweans--most of them common people--who received land, are farming it and have already reached levels of former production by whites. This fact is how I know you don't know shyt. Land reform is a growing success! :

"The media story about efficient white commercial farms is a half truth at best: at independence in 1980, 700,000 black farmers were squeezed onto 53% of the farmland, while 6,000 white farmers had 46% (and often the best land at that). Yet when Zimbabwe achieved majority rule, one third of white farmers were insolvent and a third were just about breaking even. Only 5% (300 people!) could be described as ‘very profitable’.

It often takes a generation for a land reform to produce results – the larger of Zimbabwe’s two post apartheid land reforms is only a decade old, but new farmers have already caught up with the previous white-dominated system in production (although of course, there are always better and worse farmers in any category). That is initially being achieved by bringing some of the idle land into production, but yields are also rising."



They fast-tracked the reforms after cacs reneged on the reforms in the first place. The cacs DID NOT WANT to transition ownership in ANY WAY before then. That is a FALSE ASSERTION and the fact the cacs did not want to relinquish their ill-gotten gains--as they never do whereever the fukk they are--is why Mugabe had to take the land.

But according to you, Mugabe had a "non-violent choice". No fukk that. Lincoln had a "non-violent" choice to. He could have just allowed the white American South to continue enslaving people and sought a more "peaceful" way. Clearly you are an absurdist fukking c00n.




And who knows if you have, dumbass? And if you have, what does that prove? It proves that you think 200k+ farmers are all "ministers" from ZANU-PF. Are you an academic who can study the things you talk about? No. You're just an idiot. Just provide your proof and let them speak for you.

here is a man who takes propaganda as fact. Don't think u understand how statistics can be misleading..I don't think you understand how numbers can be used by a current government to make themselves look good..I don't think you understand how cacs can fabricate numbers so it looks like people are doing their best but the person in power is fvcking up coz they not with them..Instead of trying to argue..do u see what's currently happening to zimbabweans in South Africa. .do u know how many skilled zimbabweans are out of the country trying to make a living..If things were as rosy as ur stats do you think these people wouldn't want to go back home and contribute in rebuilding the country? Well..I guess u should listen to people who have first hand experience with that land than try to make an argument with reference to some article on the Internet. .The way u come across is like me trying to use Internet sources to argue that everyone in America ..yes I mean the US..that's what we call it here..is living lovely in a mtv crib and that everyone lives cosy like an episode of friends without ever setting foot in that country.

 

[godkiller]

here is a man who takes propaganda as fact. Don't think u understand how statistics can be misleading..I don't think you understand how numbers can be used by a current government to make themselves look good..I don't think you understand how cacs can fabricate numbers so it looks like people are doing their best but the person in power is fvcking up coz they not with them..Instead of trying to argue..do u see what's currently happening to zimbabweans in South Africa. .do u know how many skilled zimbabweans are out of the country trying to make a living..If things were as rosy as ur stats do you think these people wouldn't want to go back home and contribute in rebuilding the country? Well..I guess u should listen to people who have first hand experience with that land than try to make an argument with reference to some article on the Internet. .The way u come across is like me trying to use Internet sources to argue that everyone in America ..yes I mean the US..that's what we call it here..is living lovely in a mtv crib and that everyone lives cosy like an episode of friends without ever setting foot in that country.

Breh, Mugabe is not bribing every damn American research journal that publishes a positive article on Zimbabwe's land reform. The academicians are finding what they find, and the credit-ability of the good American research journals is sterling. If a random person goes to Zimbabwe, all they'll see is poor people because most of the country is poor. They won't be able to see how many people work farms and what their productivity is. Zim having a poor economy does not mean land reform is a failure or that Mugabe was wrong to do it. It just means the country is poor. Nobody goes back to a poor country in the throes of a poor economy regardless. That goes for all countries, not just Zimbabwe. This does not prove what @Northern Son says about land reform at all.

 

[Red Shield]

The economy isn't doing well and I never said otherwise. In fact I actually say the economy isn't doing well earlier in this thread because of lack of business, among other things. so what you're saying and what I'm saying in this way doesn't differ. However the economy itself has nothing to do with Mugabe's achievements, whether land reform was right, land reform facts etc. I know for a fact cac Zimbabweans wouldn't give up land except by violence, like Northern Son says, as I have met former Zim cacs and they are racist as shyt. I also know for a fact cacs threw sanctions at Mugabe for land reform, unlike what that Dino says, etc.

o_O HUH when did I say the whites didn't throw sanctions on mugabe for land reform? The land reform/fukking with the whites is why he/Zimbabwe got hit with sanctions.

All I'm saying is dude is not pro-black, mugabe is pro-mugabe. Dude talks a damn good game and that's why blacks outside of Zimbabwe will remember his ass fondly.

 

[skokiaan]

Breh, Mugabe is not bribing every damn American research journal that publishes a positive article on Zimbabwe's land reform. The academicians are finding what they find, and the credit-ability of the good American research journals is sterling. If a random person goes to Zimbabwe, all they'll see is poor people because most of the country is poor. They won't be able to see how many people work farms and what their productivity is. Zim having a poor economy does not mean land reform is a failure or that Mugabe was wrong to do it. It just means the country is poor. Nobody goes back to a poor country in the throes of a poor economy regardless. That goes for all countries, not just Zimbabwe. This does not prove what @Northern Son says about land reform at all.

then u not as clever as I thought, u got 20% knowledge of how the real world works and I will give u that..did u know some news agencies are not allowed in Zimbabwe incase they spew propaganda or report the truth...do u even know how researchers work?..I won't even go into that but u must overstand that some people will doctor facts just to open opportunities for more research which is equal to more money on they part. Anyway hope u understand that..that researcher had a contact in Zimbabwe that showed him places (good places) and was fed good numbers etc and he was happy for that for his own security (zim jails ain't no joke)..and anyway..If u conduct ur research according to rules you will get published..its up to the next person to do the same research and discredit u..but before that a well written article can be published. What makes u think this person won't be discredited in the near future? Look at that British doctor who claimed his research findings proved measles mumps etc vaccination caused autism..He is findings were proven false after more than 5 years. I will say this again..talk to people, listen to what they say about their own land instead of relying on cacwritten history/stories.

And another thing..I know zimbabwe and I know a lot of people there who live in rural areas, they farm the land to feed their families and sell their produce etc..so if I went to write a report about their activities just after the rainy season when all is green..guess what's I would write. But if I went there any other time I will find them struggling..and these are not people who got their land with mugabe policies (don't know any/heard of any/seen any) these people got land the true african way. So in my report if I told u these people are flourishing you would believe because ur blinkered up to a standard where u don't even or won't try to understand how commercial farmers work.

 

[Northern Son]

@Roddy Right You waste of flesh, you really think of all things I'd pretend to be on the Coli, I'd consistently feign being a half Zimbabwean/half Malawian ? No one gives a fukk about that here. Jesus, use your head, shyt for brains

Proof for your Congo War and money lending assertions?

You said said you're only half Zimbabwean and you were raised in the West., You don't know shyt about what happens there regardless. If what you say is right, your evidence will support it so rest of that instead of on claims which don't prove your point and which none may verify anyway.

How about right from the horse's mouth, stupid?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/904534.stm

Zimbabwean Finance Minister Simba Makoni has admitted that his country cannot sustain the cost of its military intervention in the Democratic Republic of Congo for very much longer.
Quoted on state radio, Mr Makoni said Zimbabwe had spent the equivalent of US $200m since entering the war in 1998.

About 11,000 Zimbabwean troops are fighting with President Laurent Kabila's forces in the Congo, against rebels backed by Rwanda and Uganda.

Zimbabwe is at the same time facing the worst economic crisis in its 20-year history, with foreign exchange problems causing shortages of fuel and other commodities.

Mr Makoni was brought into government and charged with the task of reversing the country's economic decline, after June's parliamentary elections, which saw President Robert Mugabe's Zanu-PF party come close to losing its majority.

lol you don't know shyt at ALL.

One report quotes military officials as privately estimating the cost of the conflict to be closer to US $15 million a month.

But Mr Mugabe has ignored criticism of the Congo campaign, and has previously said that the cost of the war would not be revealed until the end of the conflict.

Like I said, your hero Mugabe nuked the economy and that's an undeniable fact.

As for your other request, if you really aren't aware that Mugabe steals a shytload of money from the national treasury in 2015, then you're not only an idiot, you're dismally ignorant of Zimbabwe and completely unqualified to be having this discussion.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...01/2-billion-theft-of-Zimbabwes-diamonds.html

http://nehandaradio.com/2014/04/14/govt-officials-steal-700000-starving-prison-inmates/

The Great Emperor of Black Zimbabweans Mugabe is also grooming his uneducated wife Grace as the next president. Gucci Grace as she's known also has expensive tastes:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...profited-from-illicit-diamonds-wikileaks-says

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...nt-as-war-veterans-arm-for-battle-805403.html

It is also understood that Grace Mugabe last week urged her husband to release his grip on power and move the family to Malaysia, where the couple bought a holiday home three years ago. The President's wife, who has withdrawn more than £5m from the central bank over the past five years for her foreign shopping jaunts, could no longer stand the stress associated with Mr Mugabe's efforts to cling to power, sources said. "She fears the entire first family could be assassinated. I doubt though that her word has any weight on Mugabe because no one takes her seriously," said another Zanu-PF official.

And this is with whom you want to place your faith? I'll bet your stupid ass gives money to Umar Johnson.

And LOL at "Half Zimbabwean at best" as if an interloping poser American fakkit like yourself has any claim to Zimbabwe .

Half Zimbabwean>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> basement dwelling Black American comic book nerd. Your closest contact to Zimbabwe is arguing with me on the internet, you waste of DNA.

"‘In the biggest land reform in Africa, 6,000 white farmers have been replaced by 245,000 Zimbabwean farmers. Zimbabwe’s land reform has not been neat, and huge problems remain. But 245,000 new farmers have received land, and most of them are farming it. They have raised their own standard of living; have already reached production levels of the former white farmers; and with a bit of support, are ready to substantially increase that production.’"

^
I suppose there are 245, 000 ministers in Zimbabwe who received land, as you say, oh Zimbabwean knowledge holder. No, idiot, there are 245,000 black Zimbabweans--most of them common people--who received land, are farming it and have already reached levels of former production by whites. This fact is how I know you don't know shyt. Land reform is a growing success! :

"The media story about efficient white commercial farms is a half truth at best: at independence in 1980, 700,000 black farmers were squeezed onto 53% of the farmland, while 6,000 white farmers had 46% (and often the best land at that). Yet when Zimbabwe achieved majority rule, one third of white farmers were insolvent and a third were just about breaking even. Only 5% (300 people!) could be described as ‘very profitable’.

It often takes a generation for a land reform to produce results – the larger of Zimbabwe’s two post apartheid land reforms is only a decade old, but new farmers have already caught up with the previous white-dominated system in production (although of course, there are always better and worse farmers in any category). That is initially being achieved by bringing some of the idle land into production, but yields are also rising."

No stupid, I read those articles in 2013 as well. I even posted the exact article you quoted on the Coli in other threads two years ago! That book is not peer reviewed research, much less "established facts". It's been contested actually.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/may/10/robert-mugabe-land-reform


Entrepreneurial smallscale Black farmers have started to turn things around and do well for themselves, but on the national scale (commercial) the damage is done, and the effects were and are devastating (especially throughout the last decade). It's an established fact that when the fast track land reform was enacted, most of the land's recipients were ministers and and family of ministers who didn't know what they were doing. Mugabe himself has admitted the reform itself was a failure:

Mr Mugabe, who has ruled Zimbabwe since independence in 1980, was interviewed on the state broadcaster ZBC to mark his 91st birthday, which he celebrated last weekend.

He said he wanted to encourage farmers to go into wheat farming, and blamed low productivity on the new commercial farmers for failing to utilise all their land.

"You find that most of them are just using one third of the land," Zimbabwe's state-owned Herald newspaper quotes him as saying.

During the colonial era, the best farmland was reserved for the white population and in 2000, Mr Mugabe spearheaded the seizure of the land from some 4,000 white farmers.

His critics say the land was handed out to his political allies and many of the beneficiaries were not given the equipment or training to farm productively, leading to the collapse of the agriculture-based economy.

Apart from tobacco farming (exports to China are indeed said to be doing very well), Zimbabwe is still in dire straits. Awful funding and a lack of equipment has led to Zimbabwe having to import considerable amounts of maize from South Africa, and the population is STARVING. That's agricultural excellence to you? "Raised the standard of living" my ass.

http://www.un.org/africarenewal/magazine/special-edition-agriculture-2014/zimbabwe’s-farmers-struggle-feed-nation

http://www.ipsnews.net/2013/09/mugabes-policies-starve-zimbabweans/

http://www.ipsnews.net/2015/01/good-harvest-fails-to-dent-rising-hunger-in-zimbabwe/

Since the seizure of white-owned commercial farms, food production has decreased significantly in this southern African nation. A report released in July by the Zimbabwe National Statistics Agency titled “National Poverty Income Consumption and Expenditure Survey” stated that commercial farmers contributed a paltry 15,6 percent to the national grain reserve in 2012. It was a significant decrease compared to 1994, when they contributed more than 50 percent to the national reserve.

They fast-tracked the reforms after cacs reneged on the reforms in the first place. The cacs DID NOT WANT to transition ownership in ANY WAY before then. That is a FALSE ASSERTION and the fact the cacs did not want to relinquish their ill-gotten gains--as they never do whereever the fukk they are--is why Mugabe had to take the land.

Why the fukk are you stating the obvious to me, when I've never argued otherwise, retard??? Of course it was reluctant - they're cacs - but going from zero to one hundred with very little contemplation, and getting violent was disastrous.

But according to you, Mugabe had a "non-violent choice". No fukk that. Lincoln had a "non-violent" choice to. He could have just allowed the white American South to continue enslaving people and sought a more "peaceful" way. Clearly you are an absurdist fukking c00n.

You worthless pustule , white Zimbabweans couldn't do shyt to us, if it came down to that. We WON OUR independence IN WAR, and they were not about to start anything after the second Chimurenga. They didn't have the military might to resist a peaceful land reform, shut the fukk up . The more I read your posts, the more I realise you learned everything you know about Zimbabwe through youtube videos, blogs and the like. Comparing the land seizure to the American Civil War is just a ludicrous and braindead reach.


@Roddy Right YOU are a fukking c00n, because black life, black poverty and black suffering means nothing to you. You can justify the death of thousands of innocent blacks, extreme poverty, billions looted, rigged elections, kidnappings and murders of protesters (a Zimbabwean activist who publicly opposed Mugabe named Itai Dzamara has been missing since March and has probably been killed like several before him), 90% unemployment because "th-the-the cacs though!!". Mugabe's personal success and political career matter more than black prosperity (which there was plenty of in the 80's) to your worthless bytch ass which is genuinely sick and irrational beyond belief. You have a hard on/crush on this politician (a "hero" to you) who doesn't care about you or any black person, and an obsession/preoccupation with one upping cacs over blacks getting money. You even had the audacity to say "so what" in regards to the economy turning to shyt and leading to starvation - what well adjusted, rational and truly sane (much less actual pro black which you most certainly are not) person thinks like that??? You're a fake internet militant, a moron, a disgrace to the black race and a fakkit who is not about shyt, and your tiny brain harbors some of the most unrealistic, irrational delusions ever thought. Again, go fukk yourself.

And who knows if you have, dumbass? And if you have, what does that prove? It proves that you think 200k+ farmers are all "ministers" from ZANU-PF. Are you an academic who can study the things you talk about? No. You're just an idiot. Just provide your proof and let them speak for you.

So what does it prove, dumb ass? That I've been there , talked to people, established direct correspondence and saw with my own eyes what a shythole it's become. God, are you that dumb?

You get all your "insight" from some contested book that's not peer reviewed or verified by anyone while I've talked to several Zimbabweans in Zimbabwe who are starving, have no electricity some nights, unemployed and hate Mugabe's guts like any sensible human being would. I saw university educated people having to sell fukking news papers in the streets, a completely empty mall near Victoria Falls Hotel (which only white/Indian South Africans and tourists can afford to patronize now), inconceivably shytty roads with massive, dangerous potholes, four year old kids begging for money.

Talking to the people themselves, hearing them speak for themselves, getting their informed perspectives, and not basing your entire opinion of them, their condition and their country on internet hearsay is important. You have the audacity to call me a c00n for not dikkriding a despotic politician, yet every single Zimbabwean national I know (yes, every one bar none) agrees with me and sees the land reform for the failure it is.

You can only trust the opinion of others online, I have the experience of being there and seeing it for what it is unfiltered.

Are YOU an academic? No you're just an idiot and an American interloping wannabe whose entire knowledge on Zimbabwe comes from internet blogs.

@Roddy Right I don't see how your dumb ass could spin the land reform into a W when in every sense of the term it failed to do what it was designed to do, mainly, shifting economic gains from the agriculture sector to blacks, and providing jobs for thousands of blacks. The whole thing resulted in 90% (yes, 90%) unemployment, starvation/malnutrition, importing goods (CROPS) from South Africa and severe poverty. You say Mugabe "had to" violently enact the land reform (which was never going to be easy) because of cac resistance yet the results were obviously not good for black people no matter your opinion on sanctions or the reform itself being the cause of economic failure (it was obviously both btw). Running up on unarmed cacs is just inviting sanctions, so no, moron, even with Tony Blair/Thatcher being the scum they are, it was wiser to go about it without violence, and as carefully/paced as possible. No matter what you think of the land reform, it was obviously not worth it as irreparable damage was accrued because of it. Literally nothing good came out of it.

I know for a fact cac Zimbabweans wouldn't give up land except by violence, like Northern Son says, as I have met former Zim cacs and they are racist as shyt. I also know for a fact cacs threw sanctions at Mugabe for land reform, unlike what that Dino says, etc.

: Sure you have.