When Are We Going To Stop Overrating Giannis' Defense?

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It's no secret that once a player gets painted with a brush of being a good or bad defender, that image doesn't fade - it remains the same as it did when it was first painted, regardless if the actual image changes, in reality.

Giannis' defense epitomizes the disconnect between fiction and reality.

His wingspan and ability to cover ground has given his defense superhuman connotations, where he's looked at as this omnipotent being on that end, which couldn't be further from the truth.

He's not his team's main paint protector, he doesn't shoulder the main defensive reps, he shows inconsistent effort and his intagibles on that end of the floor are rarely ever noticeable.

Over the last 4-5 seasons:

Only averages 1 block
(which pales in comparison to the likes of AD, JJJ, Wemby, Gobert etc)
Hasn't once featured in the top-20 for most contested shots (at times even falling outside of the top-50)
Hasn't once featured in the top-40 for defending shots in the paint (again, often falling outside of the top-50)
Hasn't once featured in the top-40 for keep-in-front% volume (a measurement of how proficient a defender is at keeping their opposite from getting past them).

I know a lot of folks recklessly use the percentages he holds opponents to in the paint/at the rim, but the actual volume of those shots he's defending are far too low to take anything meaningful out of it, especially when Brook Lopez anchors the paint and is the one defending the majority of these attempts; Giannis can come in and pick and choose when to defend shots, often from the weakside when players are at their most vulnerable.

The equivalent would be hyping up a player's 3-pt percentage, but they only stand in the corner taking a fraction of the attempts that the best shooters do, who shoot a considerably higher volume and do it all over the floor.

The mark of a great defensive player has always been about being at the forefront of the defense, not someone who stands behind the frontlines. He's had players like Brook who've held down the paint for him; he's had players like Jrue who've been the connective tissue on the perimeter; he's had players like Allen, Carter, Crowder etc who've changed the momentum on that end of the floor and done all the dirty work.

In Jrue's last season in Milwaukee, the Bucks had the 4th ranked defense, and in the following season after he left, they ended up with the 19th ranked defense.

Funnily enough when they had a top-5 defense in 2023, Giannis only played 63 games, but the year after when they had one of the worst defenses, he played 73 games. The Bucks' defense got worse with him playing more games. They essentially had the same main rotation in both seasons, but replaced Jrue with Dame. Now, of course, there's a difference in defensive value and impact between Jrue and Dame, but if Giannis has been heralded as this great, DPOY-caliber player, why did he allow such a notable dropoff? Why didn't he plug the holes that were left exposed after Jrue left? He didn't have to carry such a burden on offense with Dame now on board, why couldn't he then do more at the other end?

It's time that cats stop using a fictive their imaginations created about his defense, and start treating it as it exists, in reality.
 
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Dorian Breh

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Five star thread

Giannis aint all that the league just wanted to make sure the Bucks didn't try to leave Milwaukee

He gets fifteen free throws a game
Undercuts and elbows stars on the other team

And because he likes smoothies or rice krispy treats whatever other gay shyt he gets glazed by cacs

And he made that corny we are the world movie
 

Remote

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Maybe the simplest explanation is that he's 7 feet tall and when you're that size, people may assume you're a good shot blocker or rim protector.

Not that every tall player gets that reputation; Kevin Durant never did. I just suspect that many of them do.
 
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Maybe the simplest explanation is that he's 7 feet tall and when you're that size, people may assume you're a good shot blocker or rim protector.

Not that every tall player gets that reputation; Kevin Durant never did. I just suspect that many of them do.
Yep they see his size and athletic ability and stick to the notion that’s he’s a top defender.
 

threattonature

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He's definitely fallen off some defensively but saying he did because he's not high up in shots contested in the paint is not a good measure IMO. When watching Bucks games (I admittedly didn't watch much basketball this year or last) a lot of times players would see Giannis near the paint and either pull up for a jumper, pass it off, or redirect to avoid contesting him. Add that to often teams go at Brook more in the pick and roll with Brook playing the drop coverage and being the primary rim contester with Giannis usually spread out defending a shooter and it would explain Giannis being so low.
 
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He's definitely fallen off some defensively but saying he did because he's not high up in shots contested in the paint is not a good measure IMO. When watching Bucks games (I admittedly didn't watch much basketball this year or last) a lot of times players would see Giannis near the paint and either pull up for a jumper, pass it off, or redirect to avoid contesting him. Add that to often teams go at Brook more in the pick and roll with Brook playing the drop coverage and being the primary rim contester with Giannis usually spread out defending a shooter and it would explain Giannis being so low.
The volume of defending shots in the paint is only part of the picture.

I wanna make an important distintion too, that defending shots in the paint (which is the stat I referenced) is different to contesting shots in the paint. Defending shots in the paint doesn't automatically mean you're contesting the shot, it just means you're the one who's designated as the defender of that attempt, not that you're actively contesting it. i.e. if someone goes for a layup right where you are, but instead of jumping, you instead just move to the side.

I wouldn't use that measurement in a vacuum to make a grand proclamation about his defense, I'm just using it as one layer. I'm illustrating that he doesn't rank well in these particular facets of defense, of which I thought are reflective of areas and actions all over that end of the floor. More to the point of showing that he doesn't lead the Bucks in that zone, which if you're being heralded as a great defensive player, you typically have command of at least one area, not just loitering in the background feasting on the scraps.

It shows he's not willing to go beyond the call of duty to defend shots in the paint, by making it a point of emphasis. He doesn't really treat defense with that high of a priority, which I'd suspect has a certain amount to do with coaching and wanting his efforts on offense.

And to be honest, even his deterrence is overrated. In recent years it seems he gets put on a poster more than most players (who defend shots in the paint at a similar volume), and most of the time he really isn't making a concerted effort to block the shot either, which can be put down to him wanting to stay out of foul trouble and/or conserving energy. Or maybe he just doesn't care. That's not to say players aren't thinking twice before taking him on in the paint, but he simply doesn't instil fear in opponents like folks make it seem.
He was never a good 1 on 1 defender, his impact mainly came from roaming and help defense. Also their DRTG was at similar numbers (if not better) with Bledsoe and then Jrue btw.
Yeah, they were dominant on defense with Bledsoe too, I just didn't want to scale all the way back to 2020 (his last season in Milwaukee) when the squad and the respective ages of those players were much different when looking at recent years. I thought it was more appropriate to use Jrue in this case.

On that note, it was something I wanted to add, but I thought it was superfluous to the point I was making:

In Kidd's last season as coach in 2018 (when Bledsoe was on the team), they had the 19th ranked defense
Bud took over in 2019 and they ended up with the #1 defense
2020 they had the #1 defense
2021 they were 10th on defense
2022 they were 14th on defense
2023 they had the #4 defense (Bud's last season)
Then in 2024 with Doc they finish with the 19th ranked defense
And this season they current stand at 16th.

Apart from 2022, they had one of the best defenses in the league when Bud was coach, but on either side of his arrival and departure they had defenses that were below-average.
 

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The volume of defending shots in the paint is only part of the picture.

I wanna make an important distintion too, that defending shots in the paint (which is the stat I referenced) is different to contesting shots in the paint. Defending shots in the paint doesn't automatically mean you're contesting the shot, it just means you're the one who's designated as the defender of that attempt, not that you're actively contesting it. i.e. if someone goes for a layup right where you are, but instead of jumping, you instead just move to the side.

I wouldn't use that measurement in a vacuum to make a grand proclamation about his defense, I'm just using it as one layer. I'm illustrating that he doesn't rank well in these particular facets of defense, of which I thought are reflective of areas and actions all over that end of the floor. More to the point of showing that he doesn't lead the Bucks in that zone, which if you're being heralded as a great defensive player, you typically have command of at least one area, not just loitering in the background feasting on the scraps.

It shows he's not willing to go beyond the call of duty to defend shots in the paint, by making it a point of emphasis. He doesn't really treat defense with that high of a priority, which I'd suspect has a certain amount to do with coaching and wanting his efforts on offense.

And to be honest, even his deterrence is overrated. In recent years it seems he gets put on a poster more than most players (who defend shots in the paint at a similar volume), and most of the time he really isn't making a concerted effort to block the shot either, which can be put down to him wanting to stay out of foul trouble and/or conserving energy. Or maybe he just doesn't care. That's not to say players aren't thinking twice before taking him on in the paint, but he simply doesn't instil fear in opponents like folks make it seem.

Yeah, they were dominant on defense with Bledsoe too, I just didn't want to scale all the way back to 2020 (his last season in Milwaukee) when the squad and the respective ages of those players were much different when looking at recent years. I thought it was more appropriate to use Jrue in this case.

On that note, it was something I wanted to add, but I thought it was superfluous to the point I was making:

In Kidd's last season as coach in 2018 (when Bledsoe was on the team), they had the 19th ranked defense
Bud took over in 2019 and they ended up with the #1 defense
2020 they had the #1 defense
2021 they were 10th on defense
2022 they were 14th on defense
2023 they had the #4 defense (Bud's last season)
Then in 2024 with Doc they finish with the 19th ranked defense
And this season they current stand at 16th.

Apart from 2022, they had one of the best defenses in the league when Bud was coach, but on either side of his arrival and departure they had defenses that were below-average.
Common theme

Bud as coach

And an excellent defensive guard playing at the 1
 
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