Essential The Official Football (Soccer) Thread - RIP Diogo Jota

[Liu Kang]

Pushing Alves that high killed all his space that he likes to run into and comin from deep to overlap, which he has startin from RB. years. And with them havin no CF, it kind of made the tactic redundant because they wouldn't cross the ball and ended up having to play back from wide areas to central ones, thus allowing the oppositions defence to reset their position.

I understand what Pep was tryin to do with the 343, he was tryin to keep the team fresh, but he fukked himself once he made the team Messicentric.

It was bound to happen.
Guardiola having win it all in his second year, it couldn't stay the same so he had to evolve to bring some freshness to the team. If Bayern win it all this year or the next, Pep may evolve his 4/1/4/1 into a 2/3/5. Watch it

Jonny Wilson must read OFT

Well yeah it's obvious that formations don't explain it all but it contributes greatly.
Football is about movement but movements need a starting point which is the position in the formation.

***

Myself, I've been intrigued by formations since Guardiola. Never been a football aficionado like that but '11 Barça put me into football tactics and now I like watching a match simply to understand how teams play. And it's more fascinating that now I'm part of a footy team (7 or 11 depending) and that's talks that we have before starting a match.

A few weeks ago, we played a good team (we are rookies basically) and we were playing a 3/5/2 with two holding midfielders because we were scared to lose too much possession (they were playing a 4/1/4/1 on defense switching to a 4/3/3 on attacks) :

​

Problem is that our wing backs were too high and we were constantly exposed on counters. And as one of the center-backs I was always facing 2 players resulting in me being completely shyt. We were better in the second half because our defense line was higher and our wing backs lower then our shape was solider ("more solid" ?) and our build-up fluider.
We still lost 1-7.

People saying that formations and tactics are useless are wrong because it plays a key part in explaining how things happen in a match. Changing a few things can really change the outcome of the match.

 

[Kunty McPhuck]

It was bound to happen.
Guardiola having win it all in his second year, it couldn't stay the same so he had to evolve to bring some freshness to the team. If Bayern win it all this year or the next, Pep may evolve his 4/1/4/1 into a 2/3/5. Watch it


Well yeah it's obvious that formations don't explain it all but it contributes greatly.
Football is about movement but movements need a starting point which is the position in the formation.

***

Myself, I've been intrigued by formations since Guardiola. Never been a football aficionado like that but '11 Barça put me into football tactics and now I like watching a match simply to understand how teams play. And it's more fascinating that now I'm part of a footy team (7 or 11 depending) and that's talks that we have before starting a match.

A few weeks ago, we played a good team (we are rookies basically) and we were playing a 3/5/2 with two holding midfielders because we were scared to lose too much possession (they were playing a 4/1/4/1 on defense switching to a 4/3/3 on attacks) :

​

Problem is that our wing backs were too high and we were constantly exposed on counters. And as one of the center-backs I was always facing 2 players resulting in me being completely shyt. We were better in the second half because our defense line was higher and our wing backs lower then our shape was solider ("more solid" ?) and our build-up fluider.
We still lost 1-7.

People saying that formations and tactics are useless are wrong because it plays a key part in explaining how things happen in a match. Changing a few things can really change the outcome of the match.

That was your 1st mistake.


Peps 4141 isn't that far off from being a 235.

 

[Roaden Polynice]

People saying that formations and tactics are useless are wrong because it plays a key part in explaining how things happen in a match. Changing a few things can really change the outcome of the match.

It can change things in a match but it doesn't account for the randomness that can be thrown into a match at any given time, luck, inspired bits of skill, deflections. I guess what I'm saying that there's a lot of things that are outside the control of the players and the managers that can determine the outcome of a match. It cuts both ways.

I've learned from playing with my pub team (I've only played one year of actual organized league football growing up) just how difficult a manager's job is. When I'm out there playing I play somewhere in the hole to the lone striker. Even though I luck up with some goals, I'm often aware of how often I can get out of position, or how the team is formless. I'm out there looking like Januzaj without the ball

Long story short, what I'm getting at is that I have so much respect for AVB (good transition), even more so than Mourinho, because I don't think I could imagine not having played any football at the highest level, but coaching at the highest level. There's that disconnect between experiences of playing, contexts of playing and just studying a match which for me is baffling for someone to do.

If that makes sense...I've been thinking about this for some time, I just have trouble articulating it

 

[Liu Kang]

That was your 1st mistake.


Peps 4141 isn't that far off from being a 235.

Well I didn't decide it because I'm a 4/2/3/1 stan but yeah we like to play possession football because we don't have speedsters and we thought it this formation could prevent us from losing position. Thing is we didn't even really have it to begin with so we were hardly prone to lose it

And Pep's Bayern is close but still not a 2/3/5. In my mind a 2/3/5 would be more with like that :

It can change things in a match but it doesn't account for the randomness that can be thrown into a match at any given time, luck, inspired bits of skill, deflections. I guess what I'm saying that there's a lot of things that are outside the control of the players and the managers that can determine the outcome of a match. It cuts both ways.

I've learned from playing with my pub team (I've only played one year of actual organized league football growing up) just how difficult a manager's job is. When I'm out there playing I play somewhere in the hole to the lone striker. Even though I luck up with some goals, I'm often aware of how often I can get out of position, or how the team is formless. I'm out there looking like Januzaj without the ball

Long story short, what I'm getting at is that I have so much respect for AVB (good transition), even more so than Mourinho, because I don't think I could imagine not having played any football at the highest level, but coaching at the highest level. There's that disconnect between experiences of playing, contexts of playing and just studying a match which for me is baffling for someone to do.

If that makes sense...I've been thinking about this for some time, I just have trouble articulating it

I agree with you. I never said they explained everything.
But if you look at tactics, managers give players instructions to generate the movement within the shape (deforming it) : where to pass, where to be be, where to press etc. Skills and luck are part of the game and can be done without a proper formation but can it make a team play with organization ? Can it make a team win ?
Chaos football doesn't exist. Even Ajax/Netherlands total football had a shape : 4/3/3. It was just the basis though. Then how you articulate the shape is up to the managers and the players' intelligence but the basis is the formation. Total football wouldn't really have been able to work with a 4/4/2.
The formation isn't meant to stay the same during a match. And better there are not actually A formation. There are multiple : shapes for defense, attacks, pressing, counters etc. They all constitutes the formation which is really just the average position of the players.

And lads like AVB and Mourinho had good mentors to learn from. Managing is basically objectizing stuff, it's real intelligence, above all when it's done during the course of a match.
Look at Maradona, great on the field, shytty on the bench. It goes both ways too. If you lack the footy smarts, you ain't going nowhere management-wise.

 

[Kunty McPhuck]

Well I didn't decide it because I'm a 4/2/3/1 stan but yeah we like to play possession football because we don't have speedsters and we thought it this formation could prevent us from losing position. Thing is we didn't even really have it to begin with so we were hardly prone to lose it

As you a bunch of rookie, you should of thought about keepin shape being more important. You could of gone with a 541 when defending then when you attacked transform it to a 433. Give the middle CB the licence to move into midfield and act as the dm, which allows one of the fb's to push up

And Pep's Bayern is close but still not a 2/3/5. In my mind a 2/3/5 would be more with like that :

The 3. would be LWB DM RWB and not as central as you have it there.

I agree with you. I never said they explained everything.
But if you look at tactics, managers give players instructions to generate the movement within the shape (deforming it) : where to pass, where to be be, where to press etc. Skills and luck are part of the game and can be done without a proper formation but can it make a team play with organization ? Can it make a team win ?
Chaos football doesn't exist. Even Ajax/Netherlands total football had a shape : 4/3/3. It was just the basis though. Then how you articulate the shape is up to the managers and the players' intelligence but the basis is the formation. Total football wouldn't really have been able to work with a 4/4/2.
The formation isn't meant to stay the same during a match. And better there are not actually A formation. There are multiple : shapes for defense, attacks, pressing, counters etc. They all constitutes the formation which is really just the average position of the players.

And lads like AVB and Mourinho had good mentors to learn from. Managing is basically objectizing stuff, it's real intelligence, above all when it's done during the course of a match.
Look at Maradona, great on the field, shytty on the bench. It goes both ways too. If you lack the footy smarts, you ain't going nowhere management-wise.

The Ajax formation well the 90's version was a 3133/31213. The 2 side cb's were fb's

 

[Grams]

That's nice !
The whole dream was in french ? Like everything that was written was in that language or was it only the dialogues ?

Everything. I woke up like "how can I barely speak the language but I'm having entire dreams in French??? "

 

[Liu Kang]

Everything. I woke up like "how can I barely speak the language but I'm having entire dreams in French??? "

Nice ! Maybe things are starting to build up in your mind ?
You still watching movies in french without any subs ?

As you a bunch of rookie, you should of thought about keepin shape being more important. You could of gone with a 541 when defending then when you attacked transform it to a 433. Give the middle CB the licence to move into midfield and act as the dm, which allows one of the fb's to push up

5/4/1 to 4/3/3 ? That's a weird switch. But I'll submit the idea.
I still think that 4/2/3/1 is easier to use. It can be switched to 4/4/2 or 4/3/3 with ease.

The Ajax formation well the 90's version was a 3133/31213. The 2 side cb's were fb's

Isn't the real Total Football the 70's version by Rinus Michels ?

 

[yoyoyo1]

can't believe the turn this thread has taken into seriousness, this is disappointing

lets list top tactical cliches

1. outnumbered in midfield
2. using a dangerous winger to nullify a dangerous fullback

4-1-3-2 was only ever a rough notation. Stop the action at any moment and it could appear as a 3-2-3-1-1, or a 3-1-5-1, or a 5-1-2-2

fukking ridiculous. modern tactics discussions


"when the ball deflected randomly off a shot into an open space, it looked more like a 2-1-4-2-1"
"as they hit the final hopeful ball up in the 93rd minute, the coach put out what resembled a 1-2-7"

 

[Grams]

Nice ! Maybe things are starting to build up in your mind ?
You still watching movies in french without any subs ?

Yea I watch TV5Monde now or whatever that channel is no subtitles

 

[Kunty McPhuck]

5/4/1 to 4/3/3 ? That's a weird switch. But I'll submit the idea.
I still think that 4/2/3/1 is easier to use. It can be switched to 4/4/2 or 4/3/3 with ease.


Isn't the real Total Football the 70's version by Rinus Michels ?

Its not really that much of a switch 541 to a 433/4141. All you doin is pushing the middle cb, the best ball player out of the 3 CB's into midfield. Hes just playin further forward by 5-10 yards as the dm, thus allowing the 2 cm's more freedom. That 5th defender/3rd cb often happens when teams are up against possession teams when defending, the/a dm drops back . Cambiasso did it very well for Inter vs Barca at the Nou Camp in 2010 Semis 2nd leg.

Yeah Michels Baby

 

[Liu Kang]

Its not really that much of a switch 541 to a 433/4141. All you doin is pushing the middle cb, the best ball player out of the 3 CB's into midfield. Hes just playin further forward by 5-10 yards as the dm, thus allowing the 2 cm's more freedom. That 5th defender/3rd cb often happens when teams are up against possession teams when defending, the/a dm drops back . Cambiasso did it very well for Inter vs Barca at the Nou Camp in 2010 Semis 2nd leg.

Seems interesting considering we have a proper ball handler as CB (who could totally fit in the quaterback position). But a slight change would be using a 5/3/2 instead, turning into a 4/4/2 diamond because we play with two strikers. That's a nice input thanks.

Yea I watch TV5Monde now or whatever that channel is no subtitles

Ok. You don't have problems understanding everything? It's hard with no subs. If you consider coming to France in 2016, take the time to improve and don't rush it, it's not necessary. It's better to understand the whole show with subs than partially understand it without them IMO. You could also try France24 if you can, it's a good news network.
I saw Gravity yesterday (in english with fr subs) and for normal convos I could understand quite easily but when they were talking to Houston about technical space stuff I had to read the subs to fully understand.

 

[BobbyBooshay]

What are you basing this off of? He's hardly played.



Moyes is a dumbass.

Shinji is class behind the front man, great link man. We have seen this in Germany, however he aint been given a chance at Man U.

TBH Man U have more issues to worry about than just Shinji, Rooney being 1 of them.

 

[SCORCH]

Arsenal is going to win tomorrow and you haters gonna move the goalposts again.

What makes yesterday loss to Dortmund even more annoying, is they had ONE shot on goal all second half. And that was all it took. Over the last 7 years, I swear no other team gets punished as badly as Arsenal have been. Our mistakes seem to be CATASTROPHIC.

 

[Grams]

Ok. You don't have problems understanding everything? It's hard with no subs. If you consider coming to France in 2016, take the time to improve and don't rush it, it's not necessary. It's better to understand the whole show with subs than partially understand it without them IMO. You could also try France24 if you can, it's a good news network.
I saw Gravity yesterday (in english with fr subs) and for normal convos I could understand quite easily but when they were talking to Houston about technical space stuff I had to read the subs to fully understand.

Breh I understand one out of every eight words :

 

[BobbyBooshay]

lol TBH, Dortmund and Bayern are prob the best sides for counter attacks.

Hopefully good result in German and Naples and we should be fine.