Essential The Official Football (Soccer) Thread - Life and Death for South America, Pre-Season for Europe: The Club World Cup

[thatrapsfan]

none that we know of, but they're making the same sign as people who've gone out of their way to do it to offend jews, and they've been photographed with a dude who is anti-zionist, which is the easiest way to say you dont like jews (as has been already acknowledged in this thread)

i'm all for anti-establishment sentiments. it's sad that it's been co-opted by anti-semites and far right wingers (even if it's a retarded symbol and created by an idiotic entertainer). the irony of black and arab french dudes doing it, even under the assumption of them making a point of anti-zionism, is that they deserve the very things that zionists have procured for their people: a government that protects them from larger and more powerful ruling classes. zionism itself is not racism or jewish supremacy, it's just the will to exert your right to exist as a jew. just like black nationalism in the US is not anti-white or black supremacy, it's just a desire to not have to live under a government that oppresses you by default. i'm in support of all oppressed peoples having the right to control their own resources and destinies, including jews (and palestinians, for that matter). thus anti-zionism rubs me the wrong way and often appears to be an easy way to deflect one's dislike of jews.
the same conflation happened with skins in the 70s and 80s to the point that "skinhead" today in at least american english equates to "neo-nazi", when the movement came from something on the completely opposite side of the sociopolitical spectrum

but to dismiss this as "just some symbol" in every single context is errant. let's do a test: tell me the very first thing you think of when you see this picture:

Spoiler

then after you reply with your instantaneous reaction, google image search it.

Interesting points, especially your last.

I don't see how getting photographed with Dieudonne is an indictment on anything though. That anti Zionism isn't even what he's instantly recognized or associated with, he's a very popular comedian. Again my point ( as Liu Kang noted already) is that it's largely seen as a middle finger sort of symbol. You can't dismiss the fact the majority of people who've used it were not making a statement about Zionism or anything related to Jews.

Don't what to get into a tangent but while Zionism core ideals were self empowerment, in practice it resulted in forced displacement of indigenous people and ethnic cleansing( ongoing with protracted settlement building). You made the analogy to black nationalism and an example of it in practice( Liberia) led to its own sort of settler colonialism and repression. Dismissing a critique of it as simply being anti Semitic is way too dismissive . Some might steer in that direction but there are definitely wholly legitimate critiques of Israel to be had.

 

[Liu Kang]

[...]

You obviously feel some type of way about that gesture, so I won't try to convince you about anything. We will agree to disagree and end it there I guess.

My point was that, none of the athletes did it as antisemitic gesture. From Riner, to Parker, to Anelka, they did it in "honor" (didn't know how to say it better) of Dieudonné. Like a dedication. Then, the gesture might have "kidnapped" because more and more people use it the anti-semitic way, you right. But that's still don't make it a antisemitic gesture.
I may have confused the Semana Santa with the KKK, but those Valencians still have the right to wear those clothes without any backlash haven't they ? Is there any problem with them ? None that I know of. And that is because the context is important. Those pointy hoods in the US means KKK ; in Spain, it simply means a religious Easter. And it's not because some idiots or some racists take symbols in order to own them, that one loses the right to use them. I find Kanye and many ATL rappers stupid to wear or take pride in the Southern (or the Georgia) flag, but they have the right to, above all, if the symbol they have in mind is not the infamous one. So yeah, it's just a symbol, sorry.

About Zionism. You compared it to black nationalism. I agree, it is a Nationalism.
But if you're familiar with Europe, you ought to know that Nationalisms are the causes of both World Wars and a few more wars in European history. And I'm only talking about Western Europe, let's not start on the Balkans. The UE as we know it has been built on the will to stop Nationalisms. If you look at the Rome Treaty which is the very basis of Europe, the three main countries (out of the 6) are France, Germany and Italy which were the gravity centers of both wars. The Franco-Germany alliance is basically the cement of the UE and that's why till today we don't really talk shyt about Germany and try to be as diplomatic with them as possible.

We live in an era where movement (funds, people, transportation, information etc.) is deregulated and mostly free and therefore Nationalism goes against the very idea of modernity and Europe (even if that Europe is more an economic than anything). For example, the Schengen Area allows us Europeans to travel from countries to countries (apart of that area) without the need of passports which is a beautiful thing. Nationalists if they were to prevail in some countries would bring the borders back, leave the Euro and bring back outdated currencies or end student exchange programs for example. Backwards policies all over the place.

Just to state that Nationalists caused way too much trouble in Europe to be ignored and tolerated. On top of that, they are always far-rightism and it should be (it is) a right to oppose them as any far-right movement because it is prone to clashes between countries above all in Europe. You despise Le Pen and Soral which is right but you should put Zionists in the same bag as them as their policies is in the same vein (look at Zionists in Israel and the way they treat immigrants). I agree (and said it earlier) that many hide their antisemitism and cover it with anti-zionism and it's really obvious in some photographs of "quenellists". But that's not a reason to put everybody in the same boat and drown them all.

One has the right to be anti-zionist, because it's simply the right to be anti-nationalist.
That said, we can find illogical for French people to care about what happen in Isreal. I agree. It might be because the french government has always backed up the Palestinians struggle (until Sarkozy maybe).

long read but how accurate is this? http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/is-new-revolution-quietly-brewing-in.html

Well, not really accurate.

Dude is obviously a follower of that movement which mixes conspiracy theories, anti-establishment ideas, far-rights policies and (a few) leftist stuff. From what I know, Égalité & Réconciliation is a far-right movement, point-blank. Soral which is the head of it is a known antisemiste, conspiracy theorist and sexist on top of that. He went from Parti Communiste Français (far-left) to Front-National (far-right) to his own bullshyt ideology as stated in the article (right on the values and left on the labor). This dude is very eloquent, somehow really clever (he's a philosopher after all) and displays good intelligence but sees conspiracies and a jewish agenda in every corner and therefore he's dangerous. I see him more as a (political) guru.

As for the article, I saw a few words that triggered my spider-sense : Rotshchild, 9/11 Truth, AIPAC, Plutocracy, together with the CIA, elites. That's all I need to know from the author. Really.
But objectively, Égalité and Réconciliation is far from a huge movement. The website's influence is growing, their notoriety also, above all with all the quenelle scandals (Nasri issued a statement, Parker just did) but they don't matter. Dude is obviously enthusiastic about it but no there is no revolution brewing in France, no there is not a huge central party (which is the far-right's and far-left's rhetoric about the Socialist Party and the UMP being both faces of the same coin) and no there is not a bunch of "young Frenchmen looking back at the history of France since 1945 and gradually coming to the realization that the country has been rule by a arrogant cabal of plutocrats who overthrew de Gaulle in 1968 and who replaced this remarkable national leader with a protégé of the Rothschild family, Georges Pompidou"

And I'm sorry to tell dude which seems to be Muslim but there is not a soon possible wide Islam acceptance in France. France remains heavily catholic even though it's laïc and it's no where near to change.

 

[Roaden Polynice]

ah ffs I missed essay/deep topic day in OFT today. Not that I had much to add, I actually have nothing to add to this conversation.

In fact, the only question that popped into my head was, is this Deudionne guy like, the French Russell Brand?

And then I thought about what Charlie Brooker was saying in how the most popular political figure right now is...Russell Brand and I guess this fukking guy now.

 

[Clapsteel O'Neal]

@Don Rhymus, you're in Belgium ?

By the way, @Bury Da Bwoy, how is/was the trip in Paris ?

yo paris was kool you know. I liked the vibe alot, it reminded me of what London used to feel like in the 90's. Basically, if you want to go to a place that feels similar to the old London, go to Paris.

I didn't like the local food at all...like at all, and for all the people that diss England for it's women, I think I only saw like 6 legit beautiful women the whole time I was there (i didn't go to any clubs so take that point with a grain of salt)

The french people get a bad rep for being rude, but I hardly came across anyone that was rude, people just stared alot (which I now put down to maybe people thinking I was 50? That I was obvs a tourist cos I dressed completely different to everyone else or because my girl was white? I dunno) I did get the feeling there was this very hidden in plain sight air of racism. Maybe I was just being paranoid, but I did feel it alot, and I noticed the only time I saw a black person working somewhere, it was either a security job or a cleaning job

I LOVE the metro though . It's a bootleg london underground and a very poor mans version of it, but it is so grimey I couldn't help but fall in love with it. I experienced the top 5 worst smell I've ever experienced down there so I will never be able to forget that transport system ever. The metro is etched in my brain from now on.

I only really experienced Paris on a surface level because I'm really laid back so I only actually really planned to do stuff on the day. I only made an effort to go to Colette and Pigalle (the clothing brand store) in Pigalle (I do like the area Pigalle though, any area that has store names like "PORN SHOP" "p*ssy'S" and "TOP FANNY" is always gonna be good with me )

all in all, I give Paris a 6/10, it's kool, I have nothing against it, but I wouldn't go out of my way to go back unless it was business related. People don't really think about it, but when you go on holiday, the food makes or breaks it, and I had an awful experience with the food. The only enjoyable meal I had was the Hard Rock Cafe, and that was the last meal I had and I made an effort to go there because I didn't want to eat anywhere that was local. Plus, whenever I go to a country, I like to go to the Hard Rock Cafe just to say I've been there

Next stop, New York ()

 

[Liu Kang]

yo paris was kool you know. I liked the vibe alot, it reminded me of what London used to feel like in the 90's. Basically, if you want to go to a place that feels similar to the old London, go to Paris.

I didn't like the local food at all...like at all, and for all the people that diss England for it's women, I think I only saw like 6 legit beautiful women the whole time I was there (i didn't go to any clubs so take that point with a grain of salt)

The french people get a bad rep for being rude, but I hardly came across anyone that was rude, people just stared alot (which I now put down to maybe people thinking I was 50? That I was obvs a tourist cos I dressed completely different to everyone else or because my girl was white? I dunno) I did get the feeling there was this very hidden in plain sight air of racism. Maybe I was just being paranoid, but I did feel it alot, and I noticed the only time I saw a black person working somewhere, it was either a security job or a cleaning job

I LOVE the metro though . It's a bootleg london underground and a very poor mans version of it, but it is so grimey I couldn't help but fall in love with it. I experienced the top 5 worst smell I've ever experienced down there so I will never be able to forget that transport system ever. The metro is etched in my brain from now on.

I only really experienced Paris on a surface level because I'm really laid back so I only actually really planned to do stuff on the day. I only made an effort to go to Colette and Pigalle (the clothing brand store) in Pigalle (I do like the area Pigalle though, any area that has store names like "PORN SHOP" "p*ssy'S" and "TOP FANNY" is always gonna be good with me )

all in all, I give Paris a 6/10, it's kool, I have nothing against it, but I wouldn't go out of my way to go back unless it was business related.

Next stop, New York ()

You didn't like the food ? Damn, how did you survived ?
Beautiful girls depend of your tastes I guess, where did you hang out ?
About racism, french people are used to mixed couples, you can see some everytime, so I don't think it was it (the black man / white girl combo is one of the most seen, I know because I did), above all in areas like Bastille where it's kinda popular. If you were in more upper-class areas, it could have been this way but even that seems unlikely, maybe you were just being paranoid but I can't tell for sure. Maybe you dressed like Kanye and that's was the reason of it ? And rudeness is definitely a myth. Yes Parisians kinda mind their own business usually on work hours and aren't very friendly when so, but with tourists, they're always nice.

About the Métro, lol. If you were in Bastille, you may have used the line 1 which is a little recent so it's kinda clean but the other two lines passing there are still old and dirty (5 and 8 if I remember). The Métro stinks and there is nothing they can do it. I done see humans shyts on wagon-seats, people pissing in the hallways, homeless dudes stinking leaving a 5m radius no man's land around them, vomit in wagons and all type of filthiness. I'm always ashamed thinking about it from a tourist point of view

 

[Roaden Polynice]

yo paris was kool you know. I liked the vibe alot, it reminded me of what London used to feel like in the 90's. Basically, if you want to go to a place that feels similar to the old London, go to Paris.

I didn't like the local food at all...like at all, and for all the people that diss England for it's women, I think I only saw like 6 legit beautiful women the whole time I was there (i didn't go to any clubs so take that point with a grain of salt)

The french people get a bad rep for being rude, but I hardly came across anyone that was rude, people just stared alot (which I now put down to maybe people thinking I was 50? That I was obvs a tourist cos I dressed completely different to everyone else or because my girl was white? I dunno) I did get the feeling there was this very hidden in plain sight air of racism. Maybe I was just being paranoid, but I did feel it alot, and I noticed the only time I saw a black person working somewhere, it was either a security job or a cleaning job

I LOVE the metro though . It's a bootleg london underground and a very poor mans version of it, but it is so grimey I couldn't help but fall in love with it. I experienced the top 5 worst smell I've ever experienced down there so I will never be able to forget that transport system ever. The metro is etched in my brain from now on.

I only really experienced Paris on a surface level because I'm really laid back so I only actually really planned to do stuff on the day. I only made an effort to go to Colette and Pigalle (the clothing brand store) in Pigalle (I do like the area Pigalle though, any area that has store names like "PORN SHOP" "p*ssy'S" and "TOP FANNY" is always gonna be good with me )

all in all, I give Paris a 6/10, it's kool, I have nothing against it, but I wouldn't go out of my way to go back unless it was business related. People don't really think about it, but when you go on holiday, the food makes or breaks it, and I had an awful experience with the food. The only enjoyable meal I had was the Hard Rock Cafe, and that was the last meal I had and I made an effort to go there because I didn't want to eat anywhere that was local. Plus, whenever I go to a country, I like to go to the Hard Rock Cafe just to say I've been there

Next stop, New York ()

You'll like New York and the good food. Go to Harlem, there's a place called White Castle, best fast food restaurant in America.

Don't let the unkempt interior and double paned bulletproof glass that protects the cashiers throw you off, that's all part of the experience

 

[Clapsteel O'Neal]

You didn't like the food ? Damn, how did you survived ?
Beautiful girls depend of your tastes I guess, where did you hang out ?
About racism, french people are used to mixed couples, you can see some everytime, so I don't think it was it (the black man / white girl combo is one of the most seen, I know because I did), above all in areas like Bastille where it's kinda popular. If you were in more upper-class areas, it could have been this way but even that seems unlikely, maybe you were just being paranoid but I can't tell for sure. Maybe you dressed like Kanye and that's was the reason of it ? And rudeness is definitely a myth. Yes Parisians kinda mind their own business usually on work hours and aren't very friendly when so, but with tourists, they're always nice.

About the Métro, lol. If you were in Bastille, you may have used the line 1 which is a little recent so it's kinda clean but the other two lines passing there are still old and dirty (5 and 8 if I remember). The Métro stinks and there is nothing they can do it. I done see humans shyts on wagon-seats, people pissing in the hallways, homeless dudes stinking leaving a 5m radius no man's land around them, vomit in wagons and all type of filthiness. I'm always ashamed thinking about it from a tourist point of view

We went all over the place, so we used (C), 5, 7, 8, 12, 1 and a couple others. We literally went all over paris. We was only in Bastille when we was at the hotel...and how did I survive? breh I just had to suck it up, my face was stuck on whenever I was eating lol...and nah man, the metro was one of the highlights. I was always like "I wonder what's gonna happen this time". I miss that about London. It's a good experience for a tourist, I guess it'd be facking annoying for a parisian. I don't dress like Kanye in the slightest () but I definitely felt 'overdressed' if you get what I mean? lol. I do have to say, the d'Orsey (sp?) is the best gallery I've ever been to in my life, I had such a good time looking at the painting and sculptures there, seriously, if anyone goes to Paris, go there...plus Francis Bacon is my favourite painter and they had a couple of his paintings there so the place was instantly good money in my books from then on. Also, if you say you're from England and look under 25 (i'm 25 anyway), free entry to all the galleries

In regards to the racism thing, yeah I was probs paranoid, I just don't like people looking at me, and had about 6 staring contests per day

 

[thatrapsfan]

What are you Euro brehs favourite Euro cities ?

 

[Liu Kang]

What are you Euro brehs favourite Euro cities ?

Rotterdam shyt was beautiful when I went. I like that Nordic feel. Amsterdam was good too but Rotterdam really was nice.
Barcelona was cool too. But I'm a Gaudi stan so it was expected.

 

[Liu Kang]

We went all over the place, so we used (C), 5, 7, 8, 12, 1 and a couple others. We literally went all over paris. We was only in Bastille when we was at the hotel...

Oh ok, that's nice, you really visit the city because the C line is the tourist line basically. I thought you only hung out around Bastille, my bad.

and how did I survive? breh I just had to suck it up, my face was stuck on whenever I was eating lol

Why though ?
Where did y'all eat ? What kind of restaurants did you go to ? You didn't like even the basic stuff ? First time I hear something like this. Did you missed your fish and chips and your tea ?

...and nah man, the metro was one of the highlights. I was always like "I wonder what's gonna happen this time". I miss that about London. It's a good experience for a tourist, I guess it'd be facking annoying for a parisian. I don't dress like Kanye in the slightest () but I definitely felt 'overdressed' if you get what I mean? lol.

The Métro is disgusting for the average Parisian but they are used too the filth so it's not even surprising anymore. It's a great transportation mode, so I'm not even mad when I use it.

I do have to say, the d'Orsey (sp?) is the best gallery I've ever been to in my life, I had such a good time looking at the painting and sculptures there, seriously, if anyone goes to Paris, go there...plus Francis Bacon is my favourite painter and they had a couple of his paintings there so the place was instantly good money in my books from then on. Also, if you say you're from England and look under 25 (i'm 25 anyway), free entry to all the galleries

Musée d'Orsay ? This ?

Spoiler

I was an art student so I've always went to museums for free but usually when you're under 25 in France, you have plenty of free stuff or discount stuff, so good for you. When you hit 26 though, it's when the adult life really begins

In regards to the racism thing, yeah I was probs paranoid, I just don't like people looking at me, and had about 6 staring contests per day

Reminds me of this classic cartoon

 

[phillycavsfan]

Not bad.

 

[Jutt]

You brehs just reinforcing my need to take a trip to Europe

 

[mastermind]

You'll like New York and the good food. Go to Harlem, there's a place called White Castle, best fast food restaurant in America.

Don't let the unkempt interior and double paned bulletproof glass that protects the cashiers throw you off, that's all part of the experience

 

[phillycavsfan]

White Castle ain't fukkin' with In N Out, Five Guys, or Chick Fil-A. Nope.

 

[Jutt]

shyt White Castle aint even fukkin with Steak N Shake