The Kevin Durant Conundrum...

[murksiderock]

This is simple...

Durant is universally viewed as a GOAT 15 All-Timer, with some people making the argument he's Top 10. So he gets his roses, and he gets them aplenty...

The overall resting point of his basketball career will feature questions no one else of that historical stature really have...

Durant is the Top 15 All-Timer who won multiple titles who never, as of yet, showed he could lead teams to the pinnacle of the sport. What underscores this more is he's played on contending teams his entire career, save for the first three OKC seasons. Every other year he's played on contenders...

Just some bullet points:

•he and Westbrook played 8 years together in OKC. That's two Top 50 GOATs for almost a decade and they got just one Finals appearance (0-1) and a 1-3 WCF record from it. Here are some other Top 50 duos in league history who played with each other for a minimum of 5 seasons;

--Malone/Stockton, 18 years, 0-2 Finals, 2-3 WCF
--West/Baylor, 11 years, 0-7 Finals, 7-2 WDF
--Jordan/Pippen, 10 years, 6-0 Finals, 6-2 ECF
--Kareem/Magic, 10 years, 5-3 Finals, 8-1 WCF
--Kobe/Shaq, 8 years, 3-1 Finals, 4-0 WCF
--Russell/Havlicek, 7 years, 6-0 Finals, 6-1 EDF
--Russell/Cousy, 6 years, 5-1 Finals, 6-0 EDF
--Duncan/Robinson, 6 years, 2-0 Finals, 2-1 WCF
--Wilt/West, 5 years, 1-3 Finals, 4-1 WCF
--Duncan/Kawhi, 5 years, 1-1 Finals, 2-1 WCF

Including KD and Russ, there's been 11 duos of two Top 50 guys, who played a minimum of 5 years together. Only KD/Russ, West/Baylor, Malone/Stockton didn't win a championship---->and those other two duos at least made multiple Finals...

This is an underplayed characteristic of Durant's career that will be more widely criticized when he retires. Two Top 50 players who play most of their primes together win championships. West/Baylor and Malone/Stockton got requisite critique for not doing so. This chicken is eventually coming home to roost for Durant (and Russ)...

•the injuries. He and Russ only lost 2 of their 8 years together to injury ('14 and '15), so the characterization of their run as injury-riddled is revisionist...

However Durant's injury history cost him chances in '15, '19, and '20. And he missed huge chunks of '21 and '22 and '23 hurt. And he missed 20 games in '17 that would have cost him a title opportunity if not for the excellency of the Warriors franchise...

So going back to Y8 (2015), the only season he hasn't missed a minimum of 20 games, was '16, '18, and '19. You guys do realize this is nearly half his career, right? He's currently in Y16. 6 of his 16 years, he's missed 20+ games...

Availability is a skill and while we don't typically "blame" guys for being hurt, the reality is unavailability matters too, there are definitely guys who have gotten heat for always being hurt (start with his new teammate Paul). This is underplayed in his career and this is coming home to roost at some point, too...

•the '16 choke is underplayed, and the '22 choke was underplayed. They are part of his story though, we know guys whose choke jobs catch way more critique (start with former teammate Harden). 2016 in particular, leaving that team to go to the team they had on the ropes will always be viewed as funny by many people...

•the entire Brooklyn experiment. A colossal failure and probably the worst superstar experiment in league history, they never made an ECF. That franchise gave red carpet treatment to KD and he twice demanded a trade, and what makes this worse is he could have played this year out with Brooklyn...

The Kyrie trade brought back Dinwiddie and Finney-Smith. Durant returning on March 1, with BK still a 5 seed, this is not like a squad he couldn't win with. He's not a foxhole guy, forcing his way out instead of playing out the string is a bad look. I don't know that the Nets couldn't have competed with Milwaukee or Boston. Durant is great and the rest of the roster was good. His greatness gives them a fighting chance in any series, and I think tapping out after Kyrie is going to reflect poorly on him...

 

[In The Zone '98]

You saw KD win two Finals MVPs.

What more do you want?

 

[TAYLONDO SAMSWORTHY]

 

[murksiderock]

Ultimately there are just too many question marks with dude. Do I think he's one of the greatest players ever. Obviously yes...

But his decision making, on-court play in several occasions, and inability to mesh with other superstars aside from a team that was already a champion, reflect on the difficulty of having Durant as your best player. He isn't a consummate leader nor a true elevator of talent...

What he is though, is a guy who if you give him the most talented or Top heavy roster in The League, he can tilt the scales to nearly unbeatable. He's not a guy that if you give him league average rosters or less than Top 5 rosters, who can elevate you to contention, and he's not a ride or die player either...

The Kevin Durant Conundrum essentially is how a player of this historical magnitude accomplished so little and never proved to be the "driver" of Championship success...

 

[jj23]

Ultimately there are just too many question marks with dude. Do I think he's one of the greatest players ever. Obviously yes...

But his decision making, on-court play in several occasions, and inability to mesh with other superstars aside from a team that was already a champion, reflect on the difficulty of having Durant as your best player. He isn't a consummate leader nor a true elevator of talent...

What he is though, is a guy who if you give him the most talented or Top heavy roster in The League, he can tilt the scales to nearly unbeatable. He's not a guy that if you give him league average rosters or less than Top 5 rosters, who can elevate you to contention, and he's not a ride or die player either...

The Kevin Durant Conundrum essentially is how a player of this historical magnitude accomplished so little and never proved to be the "driver" of Championship success...

Horrible take.

Which system has Kevin Durant not been able to fit into while superstars continued to prosper?

 

[murksiderock]

You saw KD win two Finals MVPs.

What more do you want?

I would have loved to see him play this year out in Brooklyn...

Active posters know I'm not a huge buyer in Giannis yet, he's choked more playoff runs than that one year he won it all. I saw Durant outplay him H2H just two years ago but I'm supposed to think Durant playing this season out with the Nets gave them no shot?

I'm not a huge buyer in Boston. Tatum as your best player appears to have a non-championship ceiling, he manhandled Durant last year but I'd have wanted to run that back...

I'd have preferred he ran it back with OKC in '17, they had GS on the ropes. I wasn't pissed he left Oklahoma, but I didn't like going to the team that he had beat. Coulda went anywhere else...

This is what people mean when they question Durant's competitive fire, he's competitive when the odds are in his favor. If he has to go put in work absent the luxury of a loaded roster he looks funny...

So yeah I saw him win two rings with GS. He's played 13 years aside from that and has more injured seasons than Finals appearances in his non-GS career. That's a problem. His career is one of the highest underachieving I can think of, and the Kevin Durant Conundrum is when you really stop to give a true reflective analysis on his career, how are there so many question marks for a player this great?

 

[murksiderock]

Horrible take.

Which system has Kevin Durant not been able to fit into while superstars continued to prosper?

It's not a horrible take, his play in the '16 WCF was horrific. Even during the 3-1 lead Russ was their best player that series. He was terrible series long and that inability to save the series is a demerit...

His play in '22 Rd1 vs Boston is only less embarrassing because it came earlier, he was fukking terrible...

This isn't about what system he's been able to play in, it's how he evades critique for All-Time faceplants that other superstars are held to the fire for...

 

[DillaTUDE]

There’s no way he’s doing anything with DFS and Spence. Luka couldn’t even get it done with them in the absence of Brunson.

There’s no superstar in the league that’s winning with that Nets roster after they traded Kyrie. You need a co-star to win in todays league and it’s that simple. Book is that Kyrie replacement and he’s got a top 10 center in Ayton.

 

[jj23]

It's not a horrible take, his play in the '16 WCF was horrific. Even during the 3-1 lead Russ was their best player that series. He was terrible series long and that inability to save the series is a demerit...

His play in '22 Rd1 vs Boston is only less embarrassing because it came earlier, he was fukking terrible...

This isn't about what system he's been able to play in, it's how he evades critique for All-Time faceplants that other superstars are held to the fire for...

He didn't evade any criticism for those moments though. He was criticised, folks cracked jokes and questioned him as a leader. So you may have felt he got a pass for those but he didn't. To say he evades critique isn't correct.

Just last year I recall folks on this very board saying KD should have been able to lead the team to at least one win against Boston, and for me that stands true.

Regarding him leaving the Nets, I have a feeling that if Marks and Tsai had shown KD a clear path to the team being rebuilt quickly, or if they had traded Kyrie for another star he might have been onboard, but I don't see that the Nets had a plan themselves, they were just tired of Kyrie and weren't willing to make any concessions for him to get the max salary. All well and good, but these are the consequences.

 

[murksiderock]

There’s no way he’s doing anything with DFS and Spence. Luka couldn’t even get it done with them in the absence of Brunson.

There’s no superstar in the league that’s winning with that Nets roster after they traded Kyrie. You need a co-star to win in todays league and it’s that simple. Book is that Kyrie replacement and he’s got a top 10 center in Ayton.

Luka isn't nearly as proven as Durant, his game is part of the reason he couldn't win with those guys. Durant doesn't play like Luka...

Dinwiddie, DFS, Claxton, Curry, Harris, O'Neal, Warren, you're telling me this is a roster that ONCE DURANT CAME BACK couldn't compete at a championship level?

 

[Creflo ½ Dollar]

I agree…but idk if he is top 15 all time tho. He just ain’t made the winking impact like you would think a person of his caliber would make a more resounding impact.

He just is not a leader plain and simple..and it isn’t proven he makes his teammates better. He is great when you plug him into an already great system with great chemistry. He would have been perfect for the spurs dynasty or even that Toronto team that won with Kahwi. He just isn’t a bus driver. This Suns team should be good for him since he has less pressure.

People forget that sports are a mental game as well. If you only look at stats you are missing the whole picture (Westbrook/ Draymond and Jimmy)..

 

[murksiderock]

He didn't evade any criticism for those moments though. He was criticised, folks cracked jokes and questioned him as a leader. So you may have felt he got a pass for those but he didn't. To say he evades critique isn't correct.

Just last year I recall folks on this very board saying KD should have been able to lead the team to at least one win against Boston, and for me that stands true.

Regarding him leaving the Nets, I have a feeling that if Marks and Tsai had shown KD a clear path to the team being rebuilt quickly, or if they had traded Kyrie for another star he might have been onboard, but I don't see that the Nets had a plan themselves, they were just tired of Kyrie and weren't willing to make and concessions for him to get the max salary. All well and good, but these are the consequences.

We can agree to disagree bro!

 

[Creflo ½ Dollar]

There’s no way he’s doing anything with DFS and Spence. Luka couldn’t even get it done with them in the absence of Brunson.

There’s no superstar in the league that’s winning with that Nets roster after they traded Kyrie. You need a co-star to win in todays league and it’s that simple. Book is that Kyrie replacement and he’s got a top 10 center in Ayton.

This team is on par with the Suns team that made the championship 2 years ago. Who was the Suns second star?

 

[DillaTUDE]

Luka isn't nearly as proven as Durant, his game is part of the reason he couldn't win with those guys. Durant doesn't play like Luka...

Dinwiddie, DFS, Claxton, Curry, Harris, O'Neal, Warren, you're telling me this is a roster that ONCE DURANT CAME BACK couldn't compete at a championship level?

That team is on par with the ‘18-‘19 Lakers with Ball, BI, Kuzma, etc… that LeBron missed out on the playoffs with. And he was given a pass to seek out another star in AD, despite being the same age that KD is now.

KD’s nearing the end of his prime. There’s no point gutting it out with star-less rosters that can’t compete with the likes of Boston, Philly and Milwaukee, when LeBron was given a pass at the same age to not only trade for AD but to also pursue Kawhi Leonard in free agency after he failed to even make the playoffs with a similar cast to the one KD had post-Kyrie trade

 

[DillaTUDE]

This team is on par with the Suns team that made the championship 2 years ago. Who was the Suns second star?

Yeah, because of the addition of KD. CP3’s regressed to the point where he’s barely a top 20 PG and Ayton is still the same player that he was then.

And the criticism of that team heading into the ‘21-‘22 season was that they only made it to the Finals because the Warriors had no Klay that season, and the rest of the teams they faced until the Finals were crippled with injuries.

This Suns team is on par with, but not better than Boston or the Bucks—and there’s no superteam talks to go along with those teams.