Serious Question: Is weight training useful in conjunction with martial arts?

[Exiled Martian]

Back Story:

So I've posted in the random Gym thread about the recent advent of having joined a seriously gritty warehouse gym that has an impressive self defence area for those of us who are into pursuing MMA/Boxing/Martial arts etc (Pics in spoiler). I've really enjoyed the few sessions that I partook in, suffering some intense ass whooping by the likes of some jujitsu/ wing chun inclined brothers..straight dangerous muffukin midgets yo

At the moment I'm on a rigorous strength training regime trying to better my max lifts so that I can compete in a local power lifting meet early next year.I decided to get reacquainted (did watered down orange juice style karate for 5-7 years in my early-mid teens) with self defence after watching some recent kung-fu flicks (The Raid series was bad ass) & upon joining this hard knock style humbling gym.

Spoiler: Gym Pics

Main Gym Floor...

Boxing/MMA Area.....

Vintage Dusty Beaten Down Squat Rack....

This may sound like a bit of a daft question, but I have heard & read different sides. On the one side, people say weight training will increase your strength and power and therefore will be beneficial within a martial arts application.

However, I also KNOW that lifting focuses more on size, as opposed to strength; and apparently it is possible to increase your muscular strength without gaining the size. Similar arguments also suggest lifting weight to be less beneficial in martial arts, given that the extra mass would result in slower movements.

So my question to you lifting & martial arts incorporating types is........ does weight/strength training benefit martial arts in terms of power, or does it actually not really introduce much benefit and instead result in slower moves? hindering performance etc?

Reason I ask is because upon completing my power lifting competition,I'm contemplating pursuing martial arts (really admired what the Wing Chun brehs showed/did to me lol) more feverishly & I'd also like to able to possibly keep doing to a moderate strength training regime. So I was just wondering if there is way around doing both and benefiting equally?

 

[unit321]

Depends. More muscle will give you more strength. You can always maintain flexibility even as you get larger if you are always stretch after a workout.
Yes, there's a tipping point where your muscle mass starts to slow you down in relation to the amount of strength you get. Bodybuilding big - too much. marathon runner - too small.

 

[Exiled Martian]

Depends. More muscle will give you more strength. You can always maintain flexibility even as you get larger if you are always stretch after a workout.
Yes, there's a tipping point where your muscle mass starts to slow you down in relation to the amount of strength you get. Bodybuilding big - too much. marathon runner - too small.

Appreciate the effort in answering the question posed. You quite right as far as advice on tipping points goes. I went off to see what Google could yield on the subject matter & surprisingly came away with some decent answers. Looking to possibly come up with a custom plan/program next year for when I do opt in to pursue martial arts more seriously;

Weight training only focuses on muscle size, if that's what you're focusing on. Weights are a tool. You can use them to get bigger, or to develop strength or power or endurance.

It's important to distinguish the basic forms of training with weights:

• Bodybuilding — lifting for size and appearance; the goal is to look like, say, Arnold Schwarzenegger or Jay Cutler. This is the least productive form of weight training for martial arts: one is primarily trying to get bigger, using methods such as machines and isolation work that are generally sub-optimal for functional or sportive purposes.
• Powerlifting — lifting for strength; the goal is to improve one's ability to produce force. It is hard for me to conceive of a situation where, independent of other factors, strength is anything but a boon to martial arts practice. (The only possibility I've heard is that exceptionally strong individuals must make a conscious effort to rely on technique instead of physicality. This is akin to the curse of being naturally agile: cry me a river.) The basics include the slow lifts: squats, deadlifts, bench and overhead presses, pull-ups.
• Weightlifting — lifting for power; the goal is to improve one's ability to produce force quickly. The primary tools are the fast Olympic lifts: cleans, jerks, and snatches. Power is a derivative of strength, and everything I said about strength's applicability to martial arts counts triple for power. Exerting force quickly is a fundamental aspect of nearly all sports, particularly for striking and throwing techniques.

There are many programs for strength and power training that focus on developing those qualities without adding mass. (Some of them are martial-arts specific.) A certain amount of mass, however, is often a boon anyway for undernourished martial artists.

Benefits of Strength
Achieving a significant level of strength and power is one of the most straightforward ways to increase the effectiveness of your techniques. However, getting bigger for the purpose of getting bigger is not directly productive for martial arts. (Getting bigger will probably mean you'll get stronger, which would be good.)

But martial arts is about physicality combined with technique. Strength and power are essential components of the physicality necessary to execute any technique properly. Lifting weights is arguably the most efficient method for developing those qualities. People who say differently are either already athletic (either naturally or through prior training), or are inexperienced with weight training and shun the unknown.

Minimum Strength Necessary to Practice Fighting
Weak people have no business training martial arts. They are liable to get hurt, and will find themselves too weak to properly execute basic movements and techniques. Martial arts are about optimizing the use of strength. This is not the same as obviating the need for a baseline level of strength.

If you've been around a popular martial arts dojo long enough, I'm sure you can remember a new person signing up who is physically incapable of performing even the most basic techniques. Often they find themselves injured and re-injured, toughing out muscle spasms and sore joints in order to continue doing the activity they love. This is not healthy. Students should be required to achieve a basic level of physicality before joining regular class. Strength and mobility are of primary concern in this period, with conditioning a distant third since it can quickly be developed through regular class activities.

GOLDEN TIP:

People who can't put a barbell or a partner weighing at least as much as them on their shoulders and easily do a few squats are too weak to learn fighting techniques.

Test this hypothesis yourself: take 6 months to work up to a bodyweight barbell squat. (I'd add a 1.5x bodyweight deadlift, plus a dozen chin-ups and some heavy power cleans and presses.) Then, ask yourself whether it helped you hit harder, spar longer, pin people better, and keep a better grip on your opponent. If so, great. If not, go back to doing nothing, and with scant attention to the "problem" of excess strength, you will be smaller and weaker again.

^^^ Pretty much sold on it. the strength training background is going to prove ten folds beneficial for when I finally do to commit to a serious self defence regime.
For now I' just lift alot & tend to 'dabble' with the fighters at the gym when they need a human punching bag/ practice test dummy

 

[semtex]

I'd do some Olympic style lifting

 

[jilla82]

of course lifting weights will help.
Dont waste your time w/ bodybuilding though...focus on strength.

 

[Ego Noir]

lift for power ( >5reps)


absolutely do not do any isolation movements. Nothing but compound/big lifts

supplementing with intensive calisthenics is your friend.

devote major importance to stretching. and do not eat to bulk

obviously keep your cardio up as well.

I used to lift and box.

 

[Exiled Martian]

lift for power ( >5reps)


absolutely do not do any isolation movements. Nothing but compound/big lifts

supplementing with intensive calisthenics is your friend.

devote major importance to stretching. and do not eat to bulk

obviously keep your cardio up as well.

I used to lift and box.

When you get a chance could you elaborate on the kind of training program you ran trying to accommodate both the boxing & compound training (full body lifts) respectively?

Just want some ideas for the future to contemplate on really

 

[Ego Noir]

When you get a chance could you elaborate on the kind of training program you ran trying to accommodate both the boxing & compound training (full body lifts) respectively?

Just want some ideas for the future to contemplate on really

I've been lifting for a while so I know how my body responds to certain things.

But anyway I started boxing and I noticed that the bulk I had, was slowing me down. The extra muscle on my arms added to the weight of my arms so it just got me really tired after punching for a while. I also notice my pecs got in the way when I was trying to throw a hook

I began to understand that lifting put a level of fluff in the muscle, and doesn't translate to sport because you need explosive power, not push/pull strength. It also kept my body tightly wound so I didn't have that POP.


I didn't want to stop lifting so I just modified my workout. I went very heavy, in the 1-5 rep range, and I didn't do smooth reps, it was explosive reps. And supersetted it with intensive calisthenics.

Stretching was also very important you want your body flexible and loose like a noodle to transmit that power.

The philosophy behind it is I lifted to train my "max effort". Then immediately went into a set of calisthenics to train my control over my body weight relative to that.

The results are that my strength on every lift shot up to godly amounts, my weight went down that put me in a far better weight class, my strength actually went up, and I noticed my power became far more functional in real life (even able to do handstand press ups and planche etc)

The lifts I did and the calisthenics equivalent are:

bench press (push-ups)
Weighted dips (body weight dips)

Weighted pullups (pullups)
BB back rows (a modified form of pull-up I grab the bar lean back to where I'm parallel with the ground then do my reps)

Back squat (body weight squats)
Deadlift (body weight squats)

1 Chest exercise /1 back exercise / squats or deads. 5 sets each, on MWF.

I've actually switched to mainly calisthenics cause I don't want to slaughter my joints, and also want to keep my weight down. But it's like crack I can't give up the iron

 

[neph27]

I've been lifting for a while so I know how my body responds to certain things.

But anyway I started boxing and I noticed that the bulk I had, was slowing me down. The extra muscle on my arms added to the weight of my arms so it just got me really tired after punching for a while. I also notice my pecs got in the way when I was trying to throw a hook

I began to understand that lifting put a level of fluff in the muscle, and doesn't translate to sport because you need explosive power, not push/pull strength. It also kept my body tightly wound so I didn't have that POP.


I didn't want to stop lifting so I just modified my workout. I went very heavy, in the 1-5 rep range, and I didn't do smooth reps, it was explosive reps. And supersetted it with intensive calisthenics.

Stretching was also very important you want your body flexible and loose like a noodle to transmit that power.

The philosophy behind it is I lifted to train my "max effort". Then immediately went into a set of calisthenics to train my control over my body weight relative to that.

The results are that my strength on every lift shot up to godly amounts, my weight went down that put me in a far better weight class, my strength actually went up, and I noticed my power became far more functional in real life (even able to do handstand press ups and planche etc)

The lifts I did and the calisthenics equivalent are:

bench press (push-ups)
Weighted dips (body weight dips)

Weighted pullups (pullups)
BB back rows (a modified form of pull-up I grab the bar lean back to where I'm parallel with the ground then do my reps)

Back squat (body weight squats)
Deadlift (body weight squats)

1 Chest exercise /1 back exercise / squats or deads. 5 sets each, on MWF.

I've actually switched to mainly calisthenics cause I don't want to slaughter my joints, and also want to keep my weight down. But it's like crack I can't give up the iron

this post is beautiful

compounds + BW stuff supersetted with proper pacing is the way to go

my program that i made for myself is structured in an extremely similar fashion except around 4 days not 3, and because of my back i won't dead and squat in the same week anymore, i have to do isolation stuff one week because of my past with it

but this is all very sound information

good posting

 

[Ego Noir]

this post is beautiful

compounds + BW stuff supersetted with proper pacing is the way to go

my program that i made for myself is structured in an extremely similar fashion except around 4 days not 3, and because of my back i won't dead and squat in the same week anymore, i have to do isolation stuff one week because of my past with it

but this is all very sound information

good posting

Yea I switch from MTTF to MWF once in a while. But this type of workout been doing me good.


Once I went that route I realized theres absolutely no need to be in there doing 4 different exercises at 4 sets each with 12 reps
Nor is there need to do any iso except for abs. I havent done a curl in probably 4 years, but my arms are official. They just arent overly big like you see these gym dudes have. Looks unnatural to me

 

[neph27]

Yea I switch from MTTF to MWF once in a while. But this type of workout been doing me good.


Once I went that route I realized theres absolutely no need to be in there doing 4 different exercises at 4 sets each with 12 reps
Nor is there need to do any iso except for abs. I havent done a curl in probably 4 years, but my arms are official. They just arent overly big like you see these gym dudes have. Looks unnatural to me

exactly. compounds are going to hit the support muscles sufficently anyways, no need to be doing isolated stuff excessively. hypertrophy is for aesthetic purposes but those dudes are blown up like balloons. it's all about that balance of power and functionality. being "strong for your size" and not building that bulk that unattractive as well as impractical

tri's will get sufficently built by supporting a heavy bench

hams and glutes to support the quads with proper squat depth a DL form

bi's will be sufficent by assisting the back on rows

im the GM of personal training in a gym so you're preaching to the choir here