RUSSIA/РОССИЯ THREAD—ASSANGE CHRGD W/ SPYING—DJT IMPEACHED TWICE-US TREASURY SANCTS KILIMNIK AS RUSSIAN AGNT

Orbital-Fetus

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truth is the first casualty of any war.
i don't just mean traditional guns and bombs war either.

i'm a bit out of my depth here jumping into a conversation about postmodernism so forgive me for clumsily interjecting.

the right have a set of goals that they are set on achieving.
if the truth helps achieve those goals, fine.
if the truth hurts those goals, then lie.

the people perpetrating these lies know they are lies and they could care less about some wishy washy "oh but look at it from this point of view" in any genuine manner.
they are serving up raw and uncut bullshyt because they know that enough people will not bother to do any research of their own.
and if by some chance they do, any resource that discredits their narrative has already been discredited as fake news.

how do you engage with and combat lies and people that embrace them?
i do not believe that we can co-opt this tactic but i also don't know how to fight it.
i've had several long conversations with people i went to high school with who have joined the trump cult and it is impossible to have a real
conversation or to introduce facts that disprove what they believe because it discredits the narrative they cling on to.

the goals of the far right are more important than any "truth" that may or may not fit their perspective.
this postmodern view is really just a "by any means necessary" strategy.

the sooner we see this for what it is the better off we will be in combating it.
it must be recognized and called out as a clear and present danger.

i just rolled out of bed...
:snoop:
 

☑︎#VoteDemocrat

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I'll just say what I've said for the last two years:

The conservative politics and punditry of today are the results of evangelicals discovering postmodernism.

Being a former evangelical church-goer gives me a certain perspective on conservatism. Post-modernism is ruthlessly attacked as demonic ideas from secular humanists seeking to remove "The Truth" (of God and the Bible) from it's place of prominence.

However, conservatives now understand that making truth relative is useful when trying to affect public policy. It allows one to simply reduce empirical facts to matters of opinion, dismissing the ones they don't like.

This is especially true if it's a situation where there's no clear answer to a problem. They like Trump because of how boldly and carelessly he does so.

41QNrQFkmiL._SX334_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg
 

GnauzBookOfRhymes

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Right, but 1,2, and 3 only work if the majority of people value honesty and believe people attempt to be honest.

1. People only fight obvious lies because people believe them, not because people merely say or echo them.

2. Dishonesty can never be normalized because it requires honesty to be an effective tool.

3. I think this is the most effective tool in a consequential society. But one thing we learned from Kant is lying isn't universalizable.

I guess I’m just way more cynical about human nature. I started to respond in full but realized I’d be typing for a while. Will do so later when I’m not on my phone lol
 

☑︎#VoteDemocrat

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Trump Directed Legal Action to Enforce Stormy Daniels’s Hush Agreement
President in February instructed Michael Cohen to seek restraining order against adult-film actress, people familiar with the effort say
By
Joe Palazzolo and
Michael Rothfeld
Oct. 2, 2018 7:00 a.m. ET
im-28861

In a phone call, Mr. Trump instructed his then-lawyer Michael Cohen to seek a restraining order against the former adult-film actress, whose real name is Stephanie Clifford, through a confidential arbitration proceeding, one of the people said. Messrs. Trump and Cohen had learned shortly before that Ms. Clifford was considering giving a media interview about her alleged relationship with Mr. Trump, despite having signed an October 2016 nondisclosure agreement.

Mr. Trump told Mr. Cohen to coordinate the legal response with Eric Trump, one of the president’s sons, and another outside lawyer who had represented Mr. Trump and the Trump Organization in other matters, the people said. Eric Trump, who is running the company with his brother in Mr. Trump’s absence, then tasked a Trump Organization staff attorney in California with signing off on the arbitration paperwork, these people said.

Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump on the campaign trail in September 2016 in the presence of his then personal lawyer, Michael Cohen. Photo: Jonathan Ernst/Reuters

Direct involvement of the president and his son in the effort to silence Ms. Clifford hasn’t previously been reported.
The accounts of that effort recently provided to The Wall Street Journal suggest that the president’s ties to his company continued into this year and contradict public statements made at the time by the Trump Organization
, the White House and Mr. Cohen.

The White House referred a request for comment to the president’s outside counsel. Jay Sekulow, a lawyer for Mr. Trump, declined to comment. A person close to the situation said Eric Trump had acted as the president’s son and not in his role as a company executive. The Trump Organization declined to comment. Lanny Davis, a lawyer for Mr. Cohen, declined to comment.

In March, the Trump Organization denied any role in the arbitration, saying its lawyer assisted in her “individual capacity.”
At the same time, the White House issued blanket denials when asked about a hush payment to Ms. Clifford and directed questions to Mr. Cohen, who had called the deal a private transaction between himself and the former adult-film star. Mr. Trump has denied any sexual encounter with Ms. Clifford.

The Journal revealed on Jan. 12 that Mr. Cohen paid Ms. Clifford $130,000 before the 2016 presidential election to keep silent about the alleged sexual encounter. In a phone call about a month later—as Ms. Clifford made plans to tell her story despite the nondisclosure agreement—Mr. Trump told Mr. Cohen to enforce the contract in arbitration and indicated he would pay legal costs. “I’ll take care of everything,” the president said, one of the people familiar with the conversation said.

Mr. Cohen had a second phone conversation with Mr. Trump about the arbitration days later in the Manhattan office of Lawrence Rosen, the outside lawyer, that person said.

At the time of the conversations, the White House and Mr. Trump were dealing with the mass shooting in Parkland, Fla., and a new round of criminal charges filed by special counsel Robert Mueller against 13 Russians accused of meddling in the 2016 election.

Jill Martin, a Trump Organization lawyer, was listed as counsel on the arbitration paperwork filed in Orange County, Calif., on Feb. 22. Five days later,
an arbitrator privately issued a restraining order against Ms. Clifford, who ignored it and proceeded with her plans to publicly discuss the alleged affair.

Ms. Martin was asked to sign off on the arbitration documents by Mr. Rosen, who told her the request came from Eric Trump
, according to the people familiar with the matter.

Mr. Rosen’s firm had prepared the documents for the arbitration proceeding, but an attorney licensed in California—one of the venues stipulated for resolution of any dispute under the contract—had to sign off on them while Mr. Rosen’s application to participate in the matter as an out-of-state lawyer was pending, Mr. Rosen said in an interview this week.

When the Journal contacted Ms. Martin and the Trump Organization in March about her involvement in the arbitration, she sought out Eric Trump for advice on how to respond, according to the people.

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Eric Trump then approved a statement to the Journal drafted by Ms. Martin with input from Mr. Rosen and Alan Garten, the Trump Organization’s chief legal officer, these people said. The statement said Ms. Martin had facilitated the filing of the arbitration “in her individual capacity” and that “the company has had no involvement in the matter.”

Ms. Martin didn’t respond to a request for comment.

On March 6, Ms. Clifford sued Mr. Trump and Essential Consultants LLC, the company Mr. Cohen used to pay her, in Los Angeles County Superior Court. She asked a judge to invalidate the nondisclosure agreement, saying it was contrary to public policy and unenforceable because Mr. Trump hadn’t signed the document.

The complaint alleged that it “strains credulity to conclude that Mr. Cohen is acting on his own” to enforce the nondisclosure agreement in arbitration “without the express approval and knowledge of his client Mr. Trump.”

At a briefing at the White House the next day, press secretary Sarah Sanders was asked whether Mr. Trump approved the payment to Ms. Clifford. Mr. Trump has “made very well clear that none of these allegations are true,” Ms. Sanders said, adding that the “case has already been won in arbitration and anything beyond that I would refer you to the president’s outside counsel.”

An interview with Ms. Clifford aired on CBS’s “60 Minutes” on March 25, drawing more than 21 million viewers. She described some details of her alleged encounter with Mr. Trump in 2006 and said she signed the nondisclosure agreement with Mr. Cohen in October 2016 out of fear for the safety of her family.

In a May 3 tweet, Mr. Trump said the nondisclosure agreement with Ms. Clifford was “used to stop the false and extortionist accusations made by her about an affair.”

In August, Mr. Cohen pleaded guilty to felony violations of election laws in connection with the payments to Ms. Clifford and a former Playboy model, Karen McDougal, who also says she had an affair with Mr. Trump that he denies.

Mr. Cohen, whose sentencing is scheduled for December, said during his plea hearing in Manhattan federal court that Mr. Trump directed him to silence Ms. Clifford and coordinate a hush payment to Ms. McDougal “for the principal purpose of influencing the election” in 2016.

Rudy Giuliani, a lawyer for Mr. Trump, said after the plea that Mr. Cohen lacked credibility and that the government’s charges against Mr. Cohen contained no allegations of wrongdoing by the president.

—Rebecca Ballhaus contributed to this article.

Write to Joe Palazzolo at joe.palazzolo@wsj.com and Michael Rothfeld at michael.rothfeld@wsj.com
 
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Macallik86

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I’ve been thinking about this a lot. I dunno how many philosophy brehs we have on here, but I consider myself a post-modernist (i.e., everything is relative). This is a popular belief system in the liberal arts. It says there is no truth, just your interpretation of an event, based upon some previous conditioning. It made a ton of sense to me, existentially. However, one pitfall of the belief system is, well, Trump. He’s “postmodern” as fukk, in regard to his use of “alternative” facts and different viewpoints. This makes me think, perhaps that belief system is too dangerous. If a logical extension of this philosophy is something like the Trump admin, perhaps academics and philosophers should re-examine the benefit of such a worldview. :patrice:

I wish I was in school again to discuss this with philosophy scholars and students. shyt is kinda mind-boggling to me :jbhmm:

Any of you ever thing about this? If so, I’d love to get your opinions :lupe:
I would rep you but I'm in the red lol. I took some PoMo and Existentialist philosophy classes back in the day. The idea that comes to mind is Jean-Francois Lyotard's perspective. IIRC, he wrote one of the most ground-breaking explanations on post-modernization (even if he later in life said it was all bullshyt later in life). Here is the quote from his wiki page that is prescient AF... especially considering he wrote this in 1979:


Note: The word 'narrative' is inter-changeable with 'truth' in this context so I replaced the word 'narrative' with 'truth' for easier reading.
Most famously, in La Condition postmoderne: Rapport sur le savoir (The Postmodern Condition: A Report on Knowledge) (1979), he proposes what he calls an extreme simplification of the "postmodern" as an 'incredulity towards meta-truth'.[22] These meta-truths—sometimes 'grand truths'—are grand, large-scale theories and philosophies of the world, such as the progress of history, the knowability of everything by science, and the possibility of absolute freedom. Lyotard argues that we have ceased to believe that truths of this kind are adequate to represent and contain us all. He points out that no one seemed to agree on what, if anything, was real and everyone had their own perspective and story.[23] We have become alert to difference, diversity, the incompatibility of our aspirations, beliefs and desires, and for that reason postmodernity is characterised by an abundance of microtruths.[24]
Jean-François Lyotard - Wikipedia

If you think about it, Trump's administration reinterprets historical facts, questions science and plenty of other truths that we see to be self-evident such as our approach towards immigration, trade, tax-paying being noble, etc.

I, for one, am a fan of post-modernism, especially when it comes to religion and other things that are supposed to be unquestionable. However, it is easy to recognize the shortcomings of post-modernism in today's world, now that everyone has their own set of facts and people cannot agree on the most simple facts of life.
 
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Pressure

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I guess I’m just way more cynical about human nature. I started to respond in full but realized I’d be typing for a while. Will do so later when I’m not on my phone lol
Understood fam. I took me a while just to type that on my phone.

But I think your cynicism is accurate, in part if not completely, due to the American belief in our institutions that props up dishonest actors.
 
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