People complain about high medical insurance but don’t want universal health care.

Ethnic Vagina Finder

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People want world class service for dirt cheap. You can’t have both. People attacking insurance companies after they CEO got popped like insurance companies are the ones charging $120 for some aspirin :mjlol:

Hospitals overcharge to make up for the free care they give to people without insurance. Insurance companies fight tooth and nail from paying because they know it’s too expensive and it’s not sustainable. This country is back asswards. Republicans have scare people into not wanting Universal healthcare for so long that it’s not even talked about seriously.

Hospitals wouldn’t have to charge so much if they knew they would get paid every time they provided care. And private insurance companies would be much smaller and less powerful. But that makes too much sense.
 

LV Koopa

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Universal Healthcare also comes with its own share of issues. You don't have an infinite supply of doctors, drugs, or hospitals.
The US also bears the cost of R&D from pharmaceutical companies and our government does not negotiate drug prices like other countries. If we did, Universal Healthcare in other countries would collapse. Right now we have a mix of privatized care and blanket coverage. Works fine for the majority of people (for now) but the system needs sweeping improvements.
 

the cac mamba

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free, universal healthcare countries have one thing that liberals can't stand: locked down borders. japan, the UK, those nordic countries are literally islands. canada makes you have 15 grand in the bank to become a citizen

if you want free healthcare in this country, that means we are NOT letting in millions of broke, homeless people at the border. i'm not interested in putting that tax burden on the middle class

democrats are gonna have to make a choice :yeshrug:
 

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:hubie:I'm not a single-issue voter but Medicare for All is my "Ok, you've got my vote."

If any candidate promised this, no matter the party, I'd pledge my vote for them on the spot. Every other developed country can get some type of a universal healthcare system running but we can't? It's ridiculous.

Countries-with-Universal-Health-Coverage_website_May15.jpg
 

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Universal Healthcare also comes with its own share of issues. You don't have an infinite supply of doctors, drugs, or hospitals.
The US also bears the cost of R&D from pharmaceutical companies and our government does not negotiate drug prices like other countries. If we did, Universal Healthcare in other countries would collapse. Right now we have a mix of privatized care and blanket coverage. Works fine for the majority of people (for now) but the system needs sweeping improvements.
Why are you acting like almost every other developed nation that has public health care doesn't deal with immigration issues? You ignored France, Italy, and Greece?
 

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Why are you acting like almost every other developed nation that has public health care doesn't deal with immigration issues? You ignored France, Italy, and Greece?

I'm guessing you meant to reply to @the cac mamba but sure, I'll explain in an over simplified way.

Imagine healthcare as a barbell - in the middle you have routine health problems. Then there are the extremes: on one end you have preventative care(A) and on the other you have life threatening medical emergencies like cancer or surgery (B).

A tends to be cheap and where some arguments are. Should insurance be charging you for something like a tooth cleaning when there are tons of dentists and hygienists that can do it for $100?

Then there is B, where you need lifesaving surgery for $1,000,000. This is where insurance is supposed to really help you so you don't ever foot the bill.

And in the middle we have routine health problems that you should be able to go to a primary care physician or any regular doctor for help. Costs vary.

Scenario: You only have a limited number of medical professionals. Constrained by the sheer amount of time it takes to become a doctor, the AMA lobbyists, and the costs. There is much more demand than supply. You also have the country with the most open immigration policy in the world.

Question: How do you dole out enough medical services to everyone while keeping the costs low? Do you cut doctor's salaries (never happening), increase the amount of doctors (AMA won't allow this), shorten the time it takes to finish college + med school + rotation + specialty? (possible with AI but not even close yet). If you're following this was purely a rhetorical question because no one has been able to find any answers.

Unlike every other "developed" nation, most US politicians actually don't lie to their people about what happens if you want Universal Health Care - costs will go up. Always happens with subsidized goods; see: College tuition. So, you have to tax your citizens to cover the costs. And you still haven't solved the supply problem. So great, now you're trying to apply a universal system that covers everything for most citizens while you don't have enough medical professionals. The result is long wait times for things in the "middle" section and the B tier. Sure, it's easy to go get something routine checked out for cheap pending doctor availability. If not? Wait 18 months. You've got cancer? Good luck getting a biopsy if the system is jammed. This is why private health insurance is needed along with a national safety net if you want to go that route.

Not one country on Earth with UHC can beat the USA in quality and quantity of people served just for the sheer fact that money buys the best services available and surprise surprise - the USA is the best country for most medical services. I haven't even touched on the pharma side and physician costs in all of this. There is also the drug pricing side of this which as I alluded to before, US companies spend billions in R&D and charge Americans much more while negotiating cheaper prices with other countries. If this stopped, health care costs in other developed nations would explode.

You can't have a system that serves everyone for every ailment at a low cost while keeping service levels up. Or at least not until we have full-fledged robot AIs. There are no pure solutions, only trade-offs. UHC is great when you want to keep low, simple, quick medical problems from destroying your population. Once expensive issues that take lots of time, specialties, and medical professionals come into play you're just playing roulette on a waiting list. The US system has a ton of problems but as of now your best bet is private health insurance if you have a serious ailment or vulnerable lifestyle. If someone said it will cost $1,000,000 to save your life, you'd pay it in a heartbeat even if you went broke. You at least have the option. People in other countries don't always get to choose.
 
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Big Blue

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I'm guessing you meant to reply to @the cac mamba but sure, I'll explain in an over simplified way.

Imagine healthcare as a barbell - in the middle you have routine health problems. Then there are the extremes: on one end you have preventative care(A) and on the other you have life threatening medical emergencies like cancer or surgery (B).

A tends to be cheap and where some arguments are. Should insurance be charging you for something like a tooth cleaning when there are tons of dentists and hygienists that can do it for $100?

Then there is B, where you need lifesaving surgery for $1,000,000. This is where insurance is supposed to really help you so you don't ever foot the bill.

And in the middle we have routine health problems that you should be able to go to a primary care physician or any regular doctor for help. Costs vary.

Scenario: You only have a limited number of medical professionals. Constrained by the sheer amount of time it takes to become a doctor, the AMA lobbyists, and the costs. There is much more demand than supply. You also have the country with the most open immigration policy in the world.

Question: How do you dole out enough medical services to everyone while keeping the costs low? Do you cut doctor's salaries (never happening), increase the amount of doctors (AMA won't allow this), shorten the time it takes to finish college + med school + rotation + specialty? (possible with AI but not even close yet). If you're following this was purely a rhetorical question because no one has been able to find any answers.

Unlike every other "developed" nation, most US politicians actually don't lie to their people about what happens if you want Universal Health Care - costs will go up. Always happens with subsidized goods; see: College tuition. So, you have to tax your citizens to cover the costs. And you still haven't solved the supply problem. So great, now you're trying to apply a universal system that covers everything for most citizens while you don't have enough medical professionals. The result is long wait times for things in the "middle" section and the B tier. Sure, it's easy to go get something routine checked out for cheap pending doctor availability. If not? Wait 18 months. You've got cancer? Good luck getting a biopsy if the system is jammed. This is why private health insurance is needed along with a national safety net if you want to go that route.

Not one country on Earth with UHC can beat the USA in quality and quantity of people served just for the sheer fact that money buys the best services available and surprise surprise - the USA is the best country for most medical services. I haven't even touched on the pharma side and physician costs in all of this. There is also the drug pricing side of this which as I alluded to before, US companies spend billions in R&D and charge Americans much more while negotiating cheaper prices with other countries. If this stopped, health care costs in other developed nations would explode.

You can't have a system that serves everyone for every ailment at a low cost while keeping service levels up. Or at least not until we have full-fledged robot AIs. There are no pure solutions, only trade-offs. UHC is great when you want to keep low, simple, quick medical problems from destroying your population. Once expensive issues that take lots of time, specialties, and medical professionals come into play you're just playing roulette on a waiting list. The US system has a ton of problems but as of now your best bet is private health insurance if you have a serious ailment or vulnerable lifestyle. If someone said it will cost $1,000,000 to save your life, you'd pay it in a heartbeat even if you went broke. You at least have the option. People in other countries don't always get to choose.

Your argument simplifies healthcare too much. Preventative care (like vaccines) saves money by avoiding costly emergencies. UHC systems like Germany’s handle doctor shortages with subsidies and faster licensing—this isn’t a UHC problem, it’s a U.S. policy failure.

Wait times? Some UHC countries have them, but the U.S. also has delays—especially for the uninsured. And we already spend more on healthcare than any other country with worse results.

Drug prices? U.S. taxpayers fund a lot of R&D, and high prices here mostly pad profits. The US is one of a few countries that allow advertising for prescription drugs.

Finally, “choice” to pay $1M for care isn’t freedom—it’s a failure. Even then that "choice" won't go away as people who can afford private healthcare will pay for. Rich people from the UK, Germany and France aren't flying to the states to get treatment. UHC ensures no one faces financial ruin for getting sick. The trade-offs favor equity, not bankruptcy.
 
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free, universal healthcare countries have one thing that liberals can't stand: locked down borders. japan, the UK, those nordic countries are literally islands. canada makes you have 15 grand in the bank to become a citizen

if you want free healthcare in this country, that means we are NOT letting in millions of broke, homeless people at the border. i'm not interested in putting that tax burden on the middle class

democrats are gonna have to make a choice :yeshrug:

Canada boder ain't locked down :heh:

But universal healthcare you're taxed alot
 

LV Koopa

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I'm simplifying the argument because it is a very complex issue with a lot of moving parts and competing incentives. I've already stated that preventative care is generally cheap and is not the sole problem with healthcare costs.

Faster licensing is a partial solution to the doctor issue. But once again, you have to contend with the American Medical Association. They cap the number of doctors allowed to train. If you want to increase the number of doctors, then salaries have to drop. These disincentives future doctors as the pipeline is already many years of investment where you aren't even guaranteed to pay off your student loans.

I'm not sure how subsidies fix doctor shortages, as subsidizing any good or service increases demand. If you have a specific source that illustrates how this is possible, I'd read it. However, the main point stands - there is no system in the world that can solve for demand and service levels for everyone. Germany themselves have a mix of national healthcare and private healthcare just like the US and guess what? Their healthcare costs are not far off from the US as a % of GDP. They also have similar problems to all of the other EU nations with their system. It is not as simple as stating its' a policy issue. Every single country with UHC has long wait times, not just "some". Every single one. And of course the US has delays in the system, especially for the uninsured. That's what happens when services cost money and there isn't a better replacement for picking who gets seen. Hospitals and medical professionals want to be reimbursed for their time. There is no magic way to fix this.

Drug prices? U.S. taxpayers fund a lot of R&D, and high prices here mostly pad profits. The US is one of a few countries that allow advertising for prescription drugs.

This isn't necessarily true. It takes years, billions of dollars, and lots and lots of physicians and clinical trials on the R&D side alone to get a drug developed. Then you have to go through FDA approval and patenting. You've got between 12 and 20 years to make back the billions invested before generics hit the market and tank your profit. It takes a lot of time, money, lawyers, physicians, patients, and luck to bring a new drug to market. I'm not gung-ho about advertising for drugs either, but to simply state it's just to pad profits isn't true. New cancer drugs and treatments that take $100 billion and 15 years to bring to market? Good if they make their profit back.

Some R&D for some companies is funded by the US taxpayer. But many are publicly traded companies funded by investors. Either way, so what? Companies can charge whatever they want. If the drug costs $50,000 a pop guess what? Insurance usually pays for it. I know the popular sentiment is that everyone is evil and out to get you, but this isn't how vast majority of insurance operates nor is it even a common scenario. If you want the price of these to come down then you need to increase competition or wait for generics. Companies have to make a return on investment, especially since not every R&D project results in a new drug. Nor do all drugs that hit the market become profitable. Those costs have to be made up so we can continue to develop new ones.

Finally, “choice” to pay $1M for care isn’t freedom—it’s a failure. Even then that "choice" won't go away as people who can afford private healthcare will pay for. Rich people from the UK, Germany and France aren't flying to the states to get treatment. UHC ensures no one faces financial ruin for getting sick. The trade-offs favor equity, not bankruptcy.

No, it is literally freedom. Do you think people with fatal diseases that know they will die 1 year from today care if they were told they have to pay $1million to take a pill that saves their life? $10 million? $100 million? None of them would care, they want to live. And I'm sure you would too. Healthcare is a completely inelastic service because there is no such thing as "too much health" or "marginal healthcare". You get it no matter the cost because the other option is you die. Many people in other countries don't even get to the point of having the discussion because the service levels are not as good as in the US. The bolded is patently false. If you want the highest level of treatment for the most severe medical issues, you are flying to the US unless your country has specialists of our level. And this may come as a surprise but no country on Earth has as many specialty hospitals as the USA.

UHC does not ensure people escape financial ruin. If there is no available service you have to go the private route and pay. That may be costly. This idea of "equity" in healthcare makes no sense. You cannot just serve everyone equally. People have different levels of need. Someone has to either pay or get in a queue and take their chances. The person waiting 18 months for a biopsy isn't thinking the system is equitable and frankly wouldn't care. Their life is on the line. They are going to pay whatever it costs to get treatment immediately and you seem to misunderstand this idea because you believe UHC is some obvious solution to all of the problems with US healthcare.
 
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