Official Hezbollah/Iran-Israel Regional War Thread

King Kreole

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IMO, Hamas was simply harder to infiltrate than Hezbollah. Mossad has proven time and time that they are very competent but that doesn't mean they are infaillible. Most importantly, they are elite when it comes to technology, which it is said that Hamas didn't use to prepare Oct 7th. Beepers, phones, PCs and stuff are hackable, not word of mouth.
The "failures" on October 7th weren't a matter of infallibility. The Israeli intelligence apparatus knew an incredible amount of details about the October 7th attack for over a year before the attack. There was even wrote a 40-page battle plan drawn up detailing how to respond to the forthcoming attack. So it begs belief that the Israelis - masters of spycraft and elite covert operators - were simply outwitted by the largest attack on their territory by the people they have been besieging in an open-air prison camp since 1967.
 

King Kreole

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I can understand this point of view. I just simply do not see the will to exterminate Palestinians and a systemic approach to it.

It's weird to say it but the levels of systemic barbarism in the Armenian, Cambodgian or Rwandan genocides were far higher. I do see the systemic targeting of infrastructure and cultural sites but I do not think that it is enough to call it a genocide.

However, it's clear that there is a will to systemically remove Palestinians from their lands through force which is why this falls under ethnic cleansing to me.

Ultimately, Palestinians don't care if I call it X or Y, their suffering is still the same.
I think the levels of barbarism in the genocidal conflicts you mentioned are similar to the levels we've been witnessing in Gaza for the past year. The only difference is that Israel has a level of material advantage that allows them to outsource the directness of their genocide to their technology. Sitting in an air conditioned office cubicle in Tel Aviv while you operate a drone camera and push a button that vaporizes the maternity ward of a hospital is no less barbaric than doing so with a machete and 10 of your friends. The blood might not be on their hands, but it is definitely on their souls. And international law doesn't discriminate.

I see the clearly evident will to systemically remove Palestinians from their land through force as intrinsically tied to the genocidal intent to negate their very existence as a people. It's step 1. It's much harder to prove that Palestinians ever existed if there are none in historic Palestine, you've erased and renamed all of their historic communities, destroyed all of their historic artifacts and monuments, and made them refugees in surrounding Arab nations that you claim they've always belonged to anyway. In many ways, the most direct comparison would be what Anglo settler-colonizers did during the various Native American genocides.

But yeah I agree that what we call it is secondary to the actual events taking place on the ground.
 

Liu Kang

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I think the levels of barbarism in the genocidal conflicts you mentioned are similar to the levels we've been witnessing in Gaza for the past year. The only difference is that Israel has a level of material advantage that allows them to outsource the directness of their genocide to their technology. Sitting in an air conditioned office cubicle in Tel Aviv while you operate a drone camera and push a button that vaporizes the maternity ward of a hospital is no less barbaric than doing so with a machete and 10 of your friends. The blood might not be on their hands, but it is definitely on their souls. And international law doesn't discriminate.

I see the clearly evident will to systemically remove Palestinians from their land through force as intrinsically tied to the genocidal intent to negate their very existence as a people. It's step 1. It's much harder to prove that Palestinians ever existed if there are none in historic Palestine, you've erased and renamed all of their historic communities, destroyed all of their historic artifacts and monuments, and made them refugees in surrounding Arab nations that you claim they've always belonged to anyway. In many ways, the most direct comparison would be what Anglo settler-colonizers did during the various Native American genocides.

But yeah I agree that what we call it is secondary to the actual events taking place on the ground.
You say it yourself, ethnic cleansing is step 1 of genocide, which I agree with. It leads to it but is not it per se.

Genocide is extermination which is not what is happening currently as there is not (yet) any depopulation of Palestinians. We both agree on the systemic displacement but without the depopulation, we're "only" at the ethnic cleansing stage.
 

Liu Kang

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The "failures" on October 7th weren't a matter of infallibility. The Israeli intelligence apparatus knew an incredible amount of details about the October 7th attack for over a year before the attack. There was even wrote a 40-page battle plan drawn up detailing how to respond to the forthcoming attack. So it begs belief that the Israelis - masters of spycraft and elite covert operators - were simply outwitted by the largest attack on their territory by the people they have been besieging in an open-air prison camp since 1967.
But that's intelligence. They probably receive dozens, hundreds of plans of attack which probability they assess. It took a year for this to pan out, maybe other plans took priority, who knows. The failure is on that, it looks bad in hindsight but all the top agencies let stuff through. That's how attacks happen.

Mossad and IDF clearly rely heavily on technology for their intel and surveillance. It worked brilliantly against Hezb, it failed against Hamas. They thought their billion dollar barrier, their Merkava 4, their Iron Dome, their F35... were enough to scare Hamas from attacking. They were over confident in their tech and overwhelming military superiority. Who wouldn't have been in their position ?

Hamas did outwit them indeed.

The hole in Israel surveillance was simply the lack of human component. Not enough feet on the ground to confirm the faisability of the attack, the preparations or Hamas readiness, not enough people to man the border, to assess the incursion swiftly and to respond to it in a timely manner because they were partially blinded when Hamas targetted the observation towers... There are many reasons why it happened.

Unless you're saying Mossad let Hamas carry the worst attack on Israel soil so Netanyahu could have Carte Blanche to flatten Gaza ?
 

FAH1223

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I remember American Prestige was talking about this clown. shyt has gotten really bad in that region and he has been the US advisor during that time. Doesn’t feel like a coincidence.
4 presidents now :mindblown:

And look at Kushner. calls for an invasion of Lebanon, and demands full US support for "the peace-seeking nation of Israel" in this endeavor.
 

Kooley_High

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Correct. Yet we know that Israel's deployment of this rationale is completely without merit, and it is the IDF who has actually been found guilty of using human shields in the traditional sense of the term as utilized in international law. And even if Hamas/Hezbollah/*insert whatever Arab group Israel is attacking* was intentionally using human shields, killing the human shield is the worse crime.
If you have info on Israel doing the same then I would like to read on it. Not trying to be rude or anything, but Im unaware of them doing so but open to it being a possibility.

As for the highlighted, yes protecting civilians on both sides should be a priority however Nasrallah lead a terrorist organization that voluntarily inserted itself into a fight with Israel by launching rockets to “support” Gaza. Hezbollah has also been around for decades doing the same thing and Im pretty sure Israel had numerous drops on his location but refused to take him out but because of where he was in relation to civilians. In this case I think Nasrallah just wore out his welcome and Israel decided it was worth it to take him out, civilians included, as he was still planning attacks. Hezbollah couldve placed his bunker anywhere else in that country but they chose the capital city on purpose. Imo that is the worst crime as you knowingly open your own civilians to attacks and bombings.
 

King Kreole

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If you have info on Israel doing the same then I would like to read on it. Not trying to be rude or anything, but Im unaware of them doing so but open to it being a possibility.








As for the highlighted, yes protecting civilians on both sides should be a priority however Nasrallah lead a terrorist organization that voluntarily inserted itself into a fight with Israel by launching rockets to “support” Gaza. Hezbollah has also been around for decades doing the same thing and Im pretty sure Israel had numerous drops on his location but refused to take him out but because of where he was in relation to civilians. In this case I think Nasrallah just wore out his welcome and Israel decided it was worth it to take him out, civilians included, as he was still planning attacks. Hezbollah couldve placed his bunker anywhere else in that country but they chose the capital city on purpose. Imo that is the worst crime as you knowingly open your own civilians to attacks and bombings.
A few things here. First, I must disagree with your framing of the conflict. Nasrallah/Hezbollah didn't "insert themselves" into a fight with Israel. Israel invaded and occupied Lebanon in 1978 and 1982 and Hezbollah was formed as the response to these illegal and brutal occupation by Israel. Israel literally inserted itself into Lebanon. Hezbollah's actions in support of Palestinians in the wake of October 7th must be seen in the context of their decades-long struggle against Israel.

Second, this argument that Israel is under constant rocket attack is misleading. Over 80% of all rocket attacks since October 7th between Israel and Lebanon have come from Israel.
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They are the clear aggressors and have been attempting to provoke a broader regional war. And they enjoy technological and weaponry supremacy, which is why they never use qualitative metrics to discuss these attacks they're facing, they just say "hundreds of rockets". They do the exact same routine when they try to argue the Palestinians provoked them into committing war crimes and say "Look, we're facing hundreds of rocket attacks every day! What do you want us to do! No nation would accept this!" without mentioning the vast majority of these "rockets" are piddling bottle rockets that either get immediately neutralized by the Iron Dome or do no damage. Israelis are not living amongst constant rocket explosions or death. They're chilling on the beach in Haifa listening to the shyttiest techno music imaginable while exporting the violence and bloodshed their society is built upon to their Arab neighbours.

But I reckon you're right that Israel has had Nasrallah's location identified multiple times in the past and didn't kill him, perhaps for a multitude of reasons, including civilian collateral. But for some reason, this past week that calculus changed. To say he "just wore out his welcome" isn't any sort of legitimate justification. You don't get to just get tired of applying the guardrails of morality and international law.

Finally, I disagree with your assertion that putting a military building in a civilian area (I wonder where the IDF HQ is :jbhmm:) is a worse crime than destroying that building regardless of the civilian casualties. The whole reason using human shields or hostages is a crime is because it eliminates the ability for your opponent to clearly engage with you militarily. If the cops are chasing someone and they run into a school and take a class of 4th graders hostage, the cops can't just light up the classroom. The IDF are the only modern military force who seem to have failed that basic test of humane principles. Because they're orientalist, racist Jewish supremacists who don't believe Arabs deserve human rights.
 

Mighty Mike

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Can someone explain to me in good faith why this level of precision couldn't be used in Gaza? They completely dismantled an entire terrorist organization in less than a month. Why couldn't this have been applied to Hamas?
1. Hezbollah is closer to an army. Hamas is closer to a guerrilla force. It's easier to target a big army. The operation is bigger, and it's easier to spot trends and movements. Hamas is much more embedded into the population.
2. Because of the kidnapped Israelies, Israel's attacks must be more delicate (relatively...). That's why they have ground forces going house to house.
3. HUMINT - there are far more people rooting for Iran/Hezbollah's demise from within, so it's easier to gather intelligence. Lebanon's population is more diverse with different ethnic groups.
 
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