Neil deGrasse Tyson 'Goes There' on Climate Change: Creationists and Right-Wingers Freak Out

[tmonster]

Neil deGrasse Tyson 'Goes There' on Climate Change: Creationists and Right-Wingers Freak Out
Answers in Genesis refute science with the Bible and lose. Again.

• 
  
  
  
  Photo Credit: Answers in Genesis (L); Larry King (R); Composite Screenshot / YouTube.com
  
  May 7, 2014 |
  
  Like clockwork, the folks at Answers in Genesis (AiG), the creationist haven for self-imposed ignorance, take issue once again with Neil deGrasse Tyson, host of the popular television series “Cosmos.”
  
  While it surprises no one that AiG would flip out over evolution, the Big Bang and any other perfectly described and demonstrated scientific theory, it is rather funny to see them flipping out over something much less controversial: oxygen.
  
  Yes, they are upset about oxygen. At the start of the episode, Tyson describes what the early earth was like and its oxygen levels, and discusses some rather large insects that were able to thrive because of the massive amounts of oxygen on the planet.
  
  AiG says:
  
  Actually the notion that atmospheric oxygen levels were higher (estimated at 31–35 percent compared to our 21 percent, not really “almost twice”) has not been demonstrated. But high levels of oxygen can be toxic, and not all insects preserved with these giants were giants. Biologists are not certain why some insects grew so large and investigation is ongoing.
  
  What makes this so funny is not only how wrong they are—scientists do know why these bugs grew so large (hint: it’s oxygen)—but the only things AiG links to are more pages inside of AiG; they don’t use actual peer-reviewed studies to back up their claims. In essence they are saying it’s true because they say it’s true. This is called circular reasoning.
  
  They even go so far as to call scientific claims about the earth’s oxygen levels dogmatic:
  
  One cannot be dogmatic about whether the pre-Flood atmosphere differed from today’s. However, we need not invoke high oxygen levels or evolution to explain giant insects.
  
  What could be more dogmatic than continually saying “pre-Flood” when there is zero evidence of the great flood to which AiG is referring?
  
  AiG carries on attacking Tyson and science over the claims that oxygen led to mass extinction around the globe. AiG takes issue because Tyson claims a massive volcanic eruption (scientifically proven) caused great extinction and change to the earth's atmosphere, while AiG claims this is not the case and is all explained by the great flood. Sounds like someone watched the movie Noah too many times.
  
  Creationists simply cannot reconcile the scientific and historical evidence against their worldview, so instead of combating it with facts and evidence, they call scientists like Tyson liars.
  
  Tyson discussed the scientific method and how it overcomes bias early in the episode, describing how plate tectonics was discovered after many scientists had discarded the idea of continental drift.
  
  Tyson said:
  
  Scientists are human. We have our blind spots and prejudices. Science is a mechanism designed to ferret them out. Problem is we aren’t always faithful to the core values of science.
  
  This is called honesty, something creationists and the folks at AiG care very little about. Instead AiG attacks science again:
  
  By rejecting the historical record that should guide scientific conclusions about our origins, Tyson and those who stand with him are guilty of this themselves. These skeptics have blindly rejected the eyewitness account of a host of authors, guided by God, in the pages of Scripture due to their prejudices!
  
  The audacity of these bible beaters to claim a need for eyewitness accounts, when they blindly follow a book that was “guided” by an invisible force they call God is a textbook definition of irony.
  
  AiG continues:
  
  The scientific method demands scientific observations. Since no scientist today could observe the alleged deep history that Tyson eloquently describes, a scientific understanding of earth’s geological history requires reliance on some sort of eyewitness to the past.
  
  This is the same drum being beaten over and over again. By AiG’s standards all murderers and rapists who lack an eyewitness testimony should be released from prison immediately because evidence is not good enough.
  
  The scientific evidence for plate tectonics is massive and is not disputed by the scientific community; it can be witnessed in action today and the after-effects of its work can be seen all around the world.
  
  Because this evidence contradicts their holy book, they once again call scientists prejudiced and blind, and then claim that they have an answer. Then AiG pulls out the only card they have:
  
  There is a Book, the recorded Word of God provided by the Creator of the earth, that provides in its history a reliable and consistent guide to interpret the geological record.
  
  “There is a Book,” over and over again. There is also a book that tells us vampires sparkle in the sun, and another book that tells us hobbits throw rings into volcanoes. Books are not simply reliable sources of history because someone says they are—they need evidence to back up their claims.
  
  AiG has not been this frightened in many years. They are grasping at new straws, straws that include attacking the scientific evidence of an oxygen-rich planet and bugs that will keep you up at night if you imagine them living today.
  
  Yet to top off the massive explosion of irony from AiG this week, they end their temper tantrum of an article with this:
  
  This episode of “Cosmos” offers a lot of beautiful graphics and special effects, but in the end it should be lumped with fairy tales like Tinker Bell or Shrek. Yet Bible-believing creation scientists who are willing to look at the world through the history provided in God’s Word without the prejudice and blind ignorance can “read” in earth’s geology a true and exciting account of our history. And biblical truth is a much better account than fiction.
  
  It is hard to know where to begin in deconstructing such nonsense, but the quote speaks for itself: the creationists are so beyond delusional they start off by inventing a form of science that does not exist—creation-science. They call evidence-based observation and data "fairy tales," and then continue to reference their book that contains unicorns, dragons, talking snakes, talking donkeys, virgin birth and resurrections. I think the evidence speaks loudly for itself, and AiG's biggest fear is that you will hear it.

 

[Hawaiian Punch]

I was gonna make a thread about something similar but Wyoming rejected schools teaching science standards over global warming. No coincidence because Wyoming is the biggest coal producing state.

Wyoming to reject US science standards over global warming | Circa News


There's always an agenda.

 

[tmonster]

I was gonna make a thread about something similar but Wyoming rejected schools teaching science standards over global warming. No coincidence because Wyoming is the biggest coal producing state.

Wyoming to reject US science standards over global warming | Circa News


There's always an agenda.

it's the freemarket at work

 

[Blackking]

The laws of creation, ordained by Allah, include the elements of order, balance and proportion. Everything is limited in space and time, and scientific techniques enable us to measure much of what we experience both in their static and dynamic states. However, we may think that we know a great deal through the advance of science but we still understand very little of the totality of creation.

Our earth is one speck in an unfathomable ocean, spinning round on its tilted axis. Yet conditions for life here are so finely balanced that were the earth's tilt to alter from its present position by just one or two degrees, we would either be roasted alive or frozen to death.

Forests are an essential part of our planet's regulatory and supply system. They collect the water that forms rivers; control climate by generating moisture and absorbing solar radiation; prevent erosion by locking the soil together and act as hosts to millions of vegetable species.

Everything has a purpose and there are in the storehouse of creation gifts we have yet to receive. Over time we have discovered many trees and plants that are of great benefit to us such as the Rosy Periwinkle which is the original source of the drug that cures Leukemia.

Allah says "No creature is there crawling on the earth, no bird flying with its wings, but they are nations like unto yourselves. We have neglected nothing in the Book; then to their Lord they shall be mustered." Qur'an 6: 38

Every living creature is part of a community. The great whales that plough through the oceans, the elephants of the tropical forests and the ants and the bees are examples of creatures forming complex, efficient, multi-generational communities.

Whales live in families that live in sophisticated societies. They play in the moonlight, they talk to one another and they care for one another in distress. The whale is the largest living creature that Allah has put on this earth.


The Tropical forests alone may well contain thirty million different species of insect; that is over ninety percent of all the earth's species. Many kinds of insects have yet to be discovered and their contribution to maintaining the balance of the earth's eco-systems is still unknown.

Allah commands us, "And so set thy face steadfastly to the faith, turning away from all that is false, in accordance with the natural disposition that Allah has instilled into man: not to allow any change to corrupt what Allah has thus created - this is the ever-true faith; but most people know it not." Qur'an 30: 29
The high consumption of energy demanded by modern lifestyles produces millions of tons of pollutants each day. Poisons in the air not only constitute a serious health hazard to all who breathe them, but fall as acid rains devastating life in the forests, mountains, lakes and rivers.

Wastewater containing a lethal mixture of viruses, bacteria, chemical, metals and oils is being dumped daily into the seas. This is a serious health hazard to every living thing that comes into contact with it; including ourselves.


When forests are cut down the topsoil once held together by tree roots is eroded and carried downstream in rivers, choking aquatic life and degrading the water.


The increasingly extravagant life styles are bringing a whole range of our fellow species to near or total extinction.


If the total period of life on this planet is compared to a single year the human species has existed on it for less than twelve hours on the final day. In the brief time we have spent on this earth we are causing the extinction of species that have lived on this planet far longer than us. It is not far-fetched to say that we are also creating conditions that put the survival of the human species itself at great risk.


Balance/measure or mizan is an important concept in Islam. In Surah Rahman, Allah says, "The Most Gracious has imparted this Qur'an (unto man). He has created man: he has imparted unto him articulate thought and speech. (At His behest) the sun and moon run appointed courses; (before Him) prostrate themselves, the stars and the trees. And the skies He has raised high, and He has devised (for all things) a balance, so that you (too, O men) might never transgress the balance (of what is right): weigh, therefore, (your deeds) with equity, and cut not the balance short!" Qur'an 55: 1-9

Energy from the sun, tide and winds can be harnessed causing none of the pollution caused by the extraction and use of fossil fuels. Windmills for example, can be used for pumping water, for irrigation and generating electricity.

Planet Earth is unique. Nothing comparable to its self-organising, self-adjusting and self-replenishing eco-systems has been discovered in the whole of the known universe.

The whole of creation works because it follows the laws of the Creator. The only creature that can act contrary to its preordained patterning and upset the balance is the human being. When we pray and place our foreheads on the Earth in obeisance to the Creator it reminds us that in the end, maintaining the balance of creation requires continuous awareness of the work and the will of Allah.

So can faith save the planet?

From all that I have said, ensuring that we save the planet is not a choice for mankind (and Muslims in particular), it is a sacred that Allah has given us and for which we will be held accountable on the Day of Judgment.

Sadly, the reality is that Muslims have forgotten this sacred duty, and not many scholars or imams have emphasized or reminded of this. If we understand this responsibility that we would be at the forefront of taking action to protect the environment. We would see Muslims being at the forefront of taking action on protecting the Earth. I find it interesting that the name of one of the leading environmental movements in the world is 'Green peace' because green is the colour associated with Islam, and peace is one of the meanings of the word Islam, and yet few Muslims are involved with Greenpeace.

 

[tmonster]

The laws of creation, ordained by Allah, include the elements of order, balance and proportion. Everything is limited in space and time, and scientific techniques enable us to measure much of what we experience both in their static and dynamic states. However, we may think that we know a great deal through the advance of science but we still understand very little of the totality of creation.

Our earth is one speck in an unfathomable ocean, spinning round on its tilted axis. Yet conditions for life here are so finely balanced that were the earth's tilt to alter from its present position by just one or two degrees, we would either be roasted alive or frozen to death.

Forests are an essential part of our planet's regulatory and supply system. They collect the water that forms rivers; control climate by generating moisture and absorbing solar radiation; prevent erosion by locking the soil together and act as hosts to millions of vegetable species.

Everything has a purpose and there are in the storehouse of creation gifts we have yet to receive. Over time we have discovered many trees and plants that are of great benefit to us such as the Rosy Periwinkle which is the original source of the drug that cures Leukemia.

Allah says "No creature is there crawling on the earth, no bird flying with its wings, but they are nations like unto yourselves. We have neglected nothing in the Book; then to their Lord they shall be mustered." Qur'an 6: 38

Every living creature is part of a community. The great whales that plough through the oceans, the elephants of the tropical forests and the ants and the bees are examples of creatures forming complex, efficient, multi-generational communities.

Whales live in families that live in sophisticated societies. They play in the moonlight, they talk to one another and they care for one another in distress. The whale is the largest living creature that Allah has put on this earth.

The Tropical forests alone may well contain thirty million different species of insect; that is over ninety percent of all the earth's species. Many kinds of insects have yet to be discovered and their contribution to maintaining the balance of the earth's eco-systems is still unknown.

Allah commands us, "And so set thy face steadfastly to the faith, turning away from all that is false, in accordance with the natural disposition that Allah has instilled into man: not to allow any change to corrupt what Allah has thus created - this is the ever-true faith; but most people know it not." Qur'an 30: 29
The high consumption of energy demanded by modern lifestyles produces millions of tons of pollutants each day. Poisons in the air not only constitute a serious health hazard to all who breathe them, but fall as acid rains devastating life in the forests, mountains, lakes and rivers.

Wastewater containing a lethal mixture of viruses, bacteria, chemical, metals and oils is being dumped daily into the seas. This is a serious health hazard to every living thing that comes into contact with it; including ourselves.

When forests are cut down the topsoil once held together by tree roots is eroded and carried downstream in rivers, choking aquatic life and degrading the water.

The increasingly extravagant life styles are bringing a whole range of our fellow species to near or total extinction.

If the total period of life on this planet is compared to a single year the human species has existed on it for less than twelve hours on the final day. In the brief time we have spent on this earth we are causing the extinction of species that have lived on this planet far longer than us. It is not far-fetched to say that we are also creating conditions that put the survival of the human species itself at great risk.

Balance/measure or mizan is an important concept in Islam. In Surah Rahman, Allah says, "The Most Gracious has imparted this Qur'an (unto man). He has created man: he has imparted unto him articulate thought and speech. (At His behest) the sun and moon run appointed courses; (before Him) prostrate themselves, the stars and the trees. And the skies He has raised high, and He has devised (for all things) a balance, so that you (too, O men) might never transgress the balance (of what is right): weigh, therefore, (your deeds) with equity, and cut not the balance short!" Qur'an 55: 1-9

Energy from the sun, tide and winds can be harnessed causing none of the pollution caused by the extraction and use of fossil fuels. Windmills for example, can be used for pumping water, for irrigation and generating electricity.

Planet Earth is unique. Nothing comparable to its self-organising, self-adjusting and self-replenishing eco-systems has been discovered in the whole of the known universe.

The whole of creation works because it follows the laws of the Creator. The only creature that can act contrary to its preordained patterning and upset the balance is the human being. When we pray and place our foreheads on the Earth in obeisance to the Creator it reminds us that in the end, maintaining the balance of creation requires continuous awareness of the work and the will of Allah.

So can faith save the planet?

From all that I have said, ensuring that we save the planet is not a choice for mankind (and Muslims in particular), it is a sacred that Allah has given us and for which we will be held accountable on the Day of Judgment.

Sadly, the reality is that Muslims have forgotten this sacred duty, and not many scholars or imams have emphasized or reminded of this. If we understand this responsibility that we would be at the forefront of taking action to protect the environment. We would see Muslims being at the forefront of taking action on protecting the Earth. I find it interesting that the name of one of the leading environmental movements in the world is 'Green peace' because green is the colour associated with Islam, and peace is one of the meanings of the word Islam, and yet few Muslims are involved with Greenpeace.

 

[Chris.B]

The laws of creation, ordained by Allah, include the elements of order, balance and proportion. Everything is limited in space and time, and scientific techniques enable us to measure much of what we experience both in their static and dynamic states. However, we may think that we know a great deal through the advance of science but we still understand very little of the totality of creation.

Our earth is one speck in an unfathomable ocean, spinning round on its tilted axis. Yet conditions for life here are so finely balanced that were the earth's tilt to alter from its present position by just one or two degrees, we would either be roasted alive or frozen to death.

Forests are an essential part of our planet's regulatory and supply system. They collect the water that forms rivers; control climate by generating moisture and absorbing solar radiation; prevent erosion by locking the soil together and act as hosts to millions of vegetable species.

Everything has a purpose and there are in the storehouse of creation gifts we have yet to receive. Over time we have discovered many trees and plants that are of great benefit to us such as the Rosy Periwinkle which is the original source of the drug that cures Leukemia.

Allah says "No creature is there crawling on the earth, no bird flying with its wings, but they are nations like unto yourselves. We have neglected nothing in the Book; then to their Lord they shall be mustered." Qur'an 6: 38

Every living creature is part of a community. The great whales that plough through the oceans, the elephants of the tropical forests and the ants and the bees are examples of creatures forming complex, efficient, multi-generational communities.

Whales live in families that live in sophisticated societies. They play in the moonlight, they talk to one another and they care for one another in distress. The whale is the largest living creature that Allah has put on this earth.
The Tropical forests alone may well contain thirty million different species of insect; that is over ninety percent of all the earth's species. Many kinds of insects have yet to be discovered and their contribution to maintaining the balance of the earth's eco-systems is still unknown.

Allah commands us, "And so set thy face steadfastly to the faith, turning away from all that is false, in accordance with the natural disposition that Allah has instilled into man: not to allow any change to corrupt what Allah has thus created - this is the ever-true faith; but most people know it not." Qur'an 30: 29
The high consumption of energy demanded by modern lifestyles produces millions of tons of pollutants each day. Poisons in the air not only constitute a serious health hazard to all who breathe them, but fall as acid rains devastating life in the forests, mountains, lakes and rivers.

Wastewater containing a lethal mixture of viruses, bacteria, chemical, metals and oils is being dumped daily into the seas. This is a serious health hazard to every living thing that comes into contact with it; including ourselves.

When forests are cut down the topsoil once held together by tree roots is eroded and carried downstream in rivers, choking aquatic life and degrading the water.

The increasingly extravagant life styles are bringing a whole range of our fellow species to near or total extinction.

If the total period of life on this planet is compared to a single year the human species has existed on it for less than twelve hours on the final day. In the brief time we have spent on this earth we are causing the extinction of species that have lived on this planet far longer than us. It is not far-fetched to say that we are also creating conditions that put the survival of the human species itself at great risk.

Balance/measure or mizan is an important concept in Islam. In Surah Rahman, Allah says, "The Most Gracious has imparted this Qur'an (unto man). He has created man: he has imparted unto him articulate thought and speech. (At His behest) the sun and moon run appointed courses; (before Him) prostrate themselves, the stars and the trees. And the skies He has raised high, and He has devised (for all things) a balance, so that you (too, O men) might never transgress the balance (of what is right): weigh, therefore, (your deeds) with equity, and cut not the balance short!" Qur'an 55: 1-9

Energy from the sun, tide and winds can be harnessed causing none of the pollution caused by the extraction and use of fossil fuels. Windmills for example, can be used for pumping water, for irrigation and generating electricity.

Planet Earth is unique. Nothing comparable to its self-organising, self-adjusting and self-replenishing eco-systems has been discovered in the whole of the known universe.

The whole of creation works because it follows the laws of the Creator. The only creature that can act contrary to its preordained patterning and upset the balance is the human being. When we pray and place our foreheads on the Earth in obeisance to the Creator it reminds us that in the end, maintaining the balance of creation requires continuous awareness of the work and the will of Allah.

So can faith save the planet?

From all that I have said, ensuring that we save the planet is not a choice for mankind (and Muslims in particular), it is a sacred that Allah has given us and for which we will be held accountable on the Day of Judgment.

Sadly, the reality is that Muslims have forgotten this sacred duty, and not many scholars or imams have emphasized or reminded of this. If we understand this responsibility that we would be at the forefront of taking action to protect the environment. We would see Muslims being at the forefront of taking action on protecting the Earth. I find it interesting that the name of one of the leading environmental movements in the world is 'Green peace' because green is the colour associated with Islam, and peace is one of the meanings of the word Islam, and yet few Muslims are involved with Greenpeace.

Get the fukk outta here with the Islamic nonsense

 

[Blackking]

Get the fukk outta here with the Islamic nonsense

Humanity’s most primordial concepts of religion relate to the environment. Human history on planet Earth is, on a geological scale, very short indeed. Planet Earth itself is a mere 3,800 million years old; human beings only appeared one million or maybe two million years ago.

Most of the physical patterns of planet Earth were probably in place, broadly speaking, by the time humans evolved. Apart from what they first saw, they also probably witnessed some spectacular changes themselves. They must, at the very least, have gone through one Ice Age and seen some graphic volcanic eruptions—assuming they were able to avoid the consequences. The environment, therefore, very probably induced the first thoughts of a Super-Being—a God, if you like—whose manifestations lay in human beings’ immediate surroundings.

The environment also provided another dimension in humanity’s relationship with nature. To survive in a given environment, humans have to adjust what they take from that environment to what can give them sustainable yields on (at the very least) an annual basis. In effect this meant that early humans had to learn to conserve at an early age. Being largely dependent on what was available rather than on what they could cultivate, they entered into a partnership with the environment.

Although human beings are seen as the most intelligent life form on earth, they are responsible for almost all the damage done to the planet. If we imagined the earth is aged 46, all the damage done has taken place in the last 60 seconds of the earth's life.

The Qur’an says that Allah (God) is the Creator of the world. Human beings are on the world as trustees or ‘viceregents’ - they are told to look after the world for Allah and for the future:

The Earth is green and beautiful, and Allah has appointed you his stewards over it. The whole earth has been created a place of worship, pure and clean. Whoever plants a tree and diligently looks after it until it matures and bears fruit is rewarded. If a Muslim plants a tree or sows a field and humans and beasts and birds eat from it, all of it is love on his part.

Hadith

In the Qur’an, Muslims are instructed to look after the environment and not to damage it:

Devote thyself single-mindedly to the Faith, and thus follow the nature designed by Allah, the nature according to which He has fashioned mankind. There is no altering the creation of Allah.

Surah 30:30

Muslims have to look after the earth because it is all Allah’s creation and it is part of a human’s duty to Allah:

Allah is He Who raised up the heavens without any pillars that you can see. Then He settled Himself on the Throne, and constrained the sun and the moon to serve you; each planet pursues its course during an appointed term. He regulates it all and expounds the Signs, that you may have firm belief in the meeting with your Lord. He it is Who spread out the earth and made therein firmly fixed mountains and rivers, and of fruits of every kind He has made pairs. He causes the night to cover the day. In all this, verily, are signs doer a people who reflect.

Surah 13:3-4

Because of this passage, people see themselves as being responsible for the world which Allah created and they have to make their own decisions about how to do this.​

 

[Blackking]

U.S. Climate Has Already Changed, Study Finds, Citing Heat and Floods
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/07/science/earth/climate-change-report.html?_r=0

“Climate change, once considered an issue for a distant future, has moved firmly into the present,” the scientists declared in a major new report assessing the situation in the United States.


yall can't feel this shyt?

 

[acri1]

U.S. Climate Has Already Changed, Study Finds, Citing Heat and Floods
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/07/science/earth/climate-change-report.html?_r=0

“Climate change, once considered an issue for a distant future, has moved firmly into the present,” the scientists declared in a major new report assessing the situation in the United States.


yall can't feel this shyt?

Considering how crazy and random the weather has been for the past five years or so, it's kinda crazy to me that some people can't see that shyt is changing.

I don't even really care about some conservative/liberal shyt, you have to be in hardcore denial if you think climate change is imaginary.

 

[tmonster]

Considering how crazy and random the weather has been for the past five years or so, it's kinda crazy to me that some people can't see that shyt is changing.

I don't even really care about some conservative/liberal shyt, you have to be in hardcore denial if you think climate change is imaginary.

some folks are hoping the world ends

 

[Blackking]

Considering how crazy and random the weather has been for the past five years or so, it's kinda crazy to me that some people can't see that shyt is changing.

I don't even really care about some conservative/liberal shyt, you have to be in hardcore denial if you think climate change is imaginary.

I Guess, I'll stop the Muslim trolling for a sec.... but look at this shyt......

Climate Change: Vital Signs of the Planet -
^This is the Vital Signs of our planet right now... and it updates daily.


... showing artic sheets (lowest in 2012 for all of Earths history), current climate change, co2 increases (highest in 700Kyears), Tempatures ( the 2000's was the warmest decade that we know of) , Greenland lost half it's Ice in the 90's,

IF you think of the Earth as an organism you will see that it's getting high blood pressure and on it's way to having diabetes.....



Ninety-seven percent of climate scientists agree that climate-warming trends over the past century are very likely due to human activities,1and most of the leading scientific organizations worldwide have issued public statements endorsing this position. The following is a partial list of these organizations, along with links to their published statements and a selection of related resources.

The evidence is incontrovertible: Global warming is occurring. If no mitigating actions are taken, significant disruptions in the Earth’s physical and ecological systems, social systems, security and human health are likely to occur. We must reduce emissions of greenhouse gases beginning now."

 

[NZA]

U.S. Climate Has Already Changed, Study Finds, Citing Heat and Floods
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/07/science/earth/climate-change-report.html?_r=0

“Climate change, once considered an issue for a distant future, has moved firmly into the present,” the scientists declared in a major new report assessing the situation in the United States.


yall can't feel this shyt?

maybe it depends on where you live? in arizona it just feels hot as hell in the summer regardless of the year for the most part.

 

[Cat piss martini]

you gotta be a fukkin idiot to not see
shyt's already fukked up.