J. COLE: shyt, it’s like of course you’re gonna see hints because that shyt in my DNA. I studied him so much, it’s always gonna spill out some way. But it’s a lotta nikkas in my DNA, just like there’s a lot in him. You see Kobe do a fade-away and you be like, “Okay, that’s Jordan.” There’s hints of everybody in these guys’ game, but what makes me my own man, what makes him his own man is that we develop. You gravitate towards what you like. I studied Eminem; he wasn’t studying Eminem. He was studying nikkas that Eminem was studying, so he already had his DNA settled. Of course you gon’ hear lines—I write like, “Damn my nikka Nas would’ve been proud of this shyt, with the rhyme schemes.”
One commonality is that you’re both great hip-hop storytellers. What makes for a good story? Are there specific approaches you guys take?
NAS: Details. When I write a story, I just wanna tell you what’s in my head. It can come from real life and then turn into fantasy, stuff just rhyming. And write about what you know. I just like to tell stories that have not been told or [told] from my perspective. When I pick up albums I’m looking for stories. Tell me something that’s going on other than the fact that you the shyt.
J. COLE: That’s real. It’s no coincidence that all the greatest rappers—whoever you put in your top five—I guarantee you they a great storyteller. B.I.G. could paint that picture, but his flow is like liquid. This nikka [Nas] paint a picture, and his shyt so detail-oriented. And then he’ll come and give you the conversational piece of it. Like, he’ll put himself in the shoes from the perspective of himself then go back to describing shyt. With some people it’s too much detail. He balances the detail with action and a real beginning, middle and end—and emotion. To me, emotion makes the best stories. ’Pac is one of the illest lyricists, but that’s why his stories are so fukking crazy ’cause he’s gonna give you the emotion.
Is hip-hop lyricism experiencing a renaissance now? What’s the state of the genre?
J. COLE: It’s heading into another golden era. It might not be there just yet, but it’s getting there. Look at the options you got right now. I remember around the time Hip Hop Is Dead was coming out, I knew why you was saying it. Rap was a fukking joke. It was a singles-driven market. But even when I was unsigned, I knew with what I was doing that this was gon’ turn around. I didn’t know at the same time that Kendrick was somewhere studying, going hard. Drake was somewhere studying, going hard. nikkas is getting back to caring about rapping again. And really taking this shyt seriously, clowning nikkas that’s wack. There’s a real divided line of nikkas that can rap and nikkas that just can’t. And you can get your money and it’s all good. We still respect you and we gon’ play your song. But when you look at these guys, way different.
Does today remind you of the era you came up with in the ’90s?
NAS: Yes, and it’s the first time since that time that that’s happened. This is a special time right now. I’m happy I can see it. Just hearing Cole saying he got me on Hip Hop Is Dead means a lot. The fact that I’m seeing him, Kendrick, Drake and the dudes that’s out there... I was just talking to Diddy, and he was like, “Yo, do you see what’s going on right now? It’s happening again.” He was excited.
J. COLE: It’s fukked up to say this, but it’s true—when we was kids, there was a lack of respect for the nikkas that molded you. We ain’t know better, but we definitely lacked our homework. I had to go back and do homework on KRS, Kane, Kool G Rap. They fizzled out and weren’t really relevant to us. You might see Rakim come back with another album, all the older heads will be like, “Oh shyt!” And the younger kids were like, “nikka so what?”disrespectfully. But I love to see now that “Let Nas Down” and “Made Nas Proud”is important. Like, you’re just as important to them as me because they know how important you are to us. The fact that you’re still relevant, your pen is still crazy and you still making great music—that didn’t happen before. The legends are carrying over. Jay is still relevant. Nas—not just relevant, but y’all nikkas is still on top. It’s crazy.
The difference is that the Kanes and KRSes sounded more dated in comparison to the mid-’90s rappers. Aesthetically, there’s more continuity between the previous two generations
.
NAS: Yeah, but they had to come around to that. There was a moment when nobody wanted to hear our older albums. Maybe it was the South rising up or that music was changing altogether. It seemed like for maybe a two-to-three-year period, our older albums were forgotten. But that happens with everything. We benefitted off lessons we’ve learned. Tony Montana taught us a lot. Never get high off your own supply. The other generation that saw that same movie, it was too late. They were caught in the rapture of the times, so it just only so far they could go. Whether they was high on ego or the industry was doing our brothers bad back then.
J. COLE: It’s evolution. Next generation will learn from the previous one.
Is there any question that you two have wanted to ask each other?
J. COLE: I got mad questions.
NAS: [Laughs]
J. COLE: He’s a historian; a lot of people don’t know that. This nikka knows all the facts. Let’s see... Just for a history lesson, who—if anybody—has the other versions of “Ether” and why haven’t they ever leaked? Do they exist or are they gone?
NAS: You know what’s crazy? I never think about that song, I don’t know the rhymes to that song, it’s blank. I’d rather not talk about that one.
J. COLE: Okay, I got another. On [“We Will Survive”] you talk about not going to B.I.G.’s funeral. Was that on purpose, you wasn’t in town or you just couldn’t bring yourself to go. Or was there another reason?
NAS: Man, me and Biggie were the biggest artists in New York. When he passed, I was so messed up. My attitude was messed up about him dying. There was an East-West thing back then, and I was in war mode. My attitude, my disposition, it wasn’t good to be around people, especially at a funeral for somebody I cared so much about. I paid my respects from home, man. Sent my prayers, and I didn’t wanna deal with the fanaticism of the sensationalized hip-hop superstar funeral.
J. COLE: It was almost like a party, the who’s who.
NAS: I couldn’t deal with that. I miss my brother to this day. I always think about what he’d be like, what he’d sound like to this day. I just couldn’t do it.
You both infuse very personal portions of your life into music. Talk of family and relationships come up often. How do you go about that before you put that out? Is there a thought like, “Maybe I should hold back?” Are there preliminary conversations that take place with people mentioned?
J. COLE: My shyt be like, “Whew, did this nikka just say that?” So I do be feeling compelled [to let] X-Y-Z hear it. I have this song on my first album called “Breakdown” talking about my pops. I ain’t play it for him. He just had to hear that on his own. But it did spark a conversation. We weren’t on as good of terms when I wrote the song as we were when it was released. We’ve become better friends. So by the time he heard it, it made it even better. That’s what I do. I’m like an introvert. I may say some shyt on the song before I say it [in convo].
NAS: It’s therapy for you.
J. COLE: Exactly.
“She Knows” off Born Sinner was an especially touchy take on relationships.
J. COLE: [Looks over both shoulders] Yeah, man. That’s for another conversation.
NAS: You pretty brave. You say some things on the record, bro. Yeah, we gon’ leave it alone. I’m pretty fukked up with that. Anybody I’m dating, I don’t want them to talk about my music. I don’t talk about my music to them. Anybody that’s dating me probably thinks I’m crazy because they like, “I thought he was a rapper.” I played [“Bye Baby”] for my ex because the time presented itself and it was about both of us.
Your divorce with Kelis, among other struggles, motivated much of Life Is Good. What’s the inspiration behind the next album?
NAS: Life. I feel like Alexander Graham Bell, knowing that he’s about to do something that’s never been done. I’m bursting with excitement, but focused more than I’ve been in the past. I’m at a place where there’s so many things that ain’t been said. Things I’ve seen that I never talked about that I wanna share. I’m so excited to tell this story because it’s real shyt. It’s needed. I hate to sound like that—to say it’s needed for hip-hop—but fukk it. It is.
Kendrick Lamar said he needed Nas on “Sing About Me, I’m Dying of Thirst” from his good kid, m.A.A.d. city album.
NAS: That would’ve been an honor. This is the first time since that [golden] era that rap has come back, so it would’ve been an honor. I would love to [collaborate].
Hip-hop is obviously a competitive sport, but when is the last time an artist outshined you on a track?
NAS: I’m sure there were enough times I wasn’t the shiniest nikka. It happens. I don’t [feel] every record I do with somebody is a battle. I just do my best. So if you outshine me and it’s a great record because of it, we win.
J. COLE: You always know that’s gonna be a conversation. But you don’t always necessarily give a fukk. Jay-Z did his “Mr. Nice Watch” verse after mine—I didn’t even know he was gonna get on the song. My competitive side was like, “Yo, I wanna change my fukking verse ’cause this nikka just got on here and went crazy.” Timing-wise, I had to turn in my album. [But] he made my song better by going that hard, so it’s cool. I’ll take that one.
NAS: If me and Cole are on a track, they gonna talk about whose verse is the illest. Our boys are gon’ be like, “Yo, you gotta smoke him on that.”That’s what rap is all about. That’s how it should always be.
