Motivation and social skills more important than intelligence?

Gallo

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We tend to think that intellectual achievement is the fairest and highest standard of merit. The Ivy League process, quite apart from its dubious origins, seems subjective and opaque. Why should personality and athletic ability matter so much? The notion that “the ability to throw, kick, or hit a ball is a legitimate criterion in determining who should be admitted to our greatest research universities,” Karabel writes, is “a proposition that would be considered laughable in most of the world’s countries.” At the same time that Harvard was constructing its byzantine admissions system, Hunter College Elementary School, in New York, required simply that applicants take an exam, and if they scored in the top fifty they got in. It’s hard to imagine a more objective and transparent procedure.

But what did Hunter achieve with that best-students model? In the nineteen-eighties, a handful of educational researchers surveyed the students who attended the elementary school between 1948 and 1960. [The results were published in 1993 as “Genius Revisited: High IQ Children Grown Up,” by Rena Subotnik, Lee Kassan, Ellen Summers, and Alan Wasser.] This was a group with an average I.Q. of 157—three and a half standard deviations above the mean—who had been given what, by any measure, was one of the finest classroom experiences in the world. As graduates, though, they weren’t nearly as distinguished as they were expected to be. “Although most of our study participants are successful and fairly content with their lives and accomplishments,” the authors conclude, “there are no superstars . . . and only one or two familiar names.” The researchers spend a great deal of time trying to figure out why Hunter graduates are so disappointing, and end up sounding very much like Wilbur Bender. Being a smart child isn’t a terribly good predictor of success in later life, they conclude. “Non-intellective” factors—like motivation and social skills—probably matter more. Perhaps, the study suggests, “after noting the sacrifices involved in trying for national or world-class leadership in a field, H.C.E.S. graduates decided that the intelligent thing to do was to choose relatively happy and successful lives.” It is a wonderful thing, of course, for a school to turn out lots of relatively happy and successful graduates. But Harvard didn’t want lots of relatively happy and successful graduates. It wanted superstars, and Bender and his colleagues recognized that if this is your goal a best-students model isn’t enough.

Most élite law schools, to cite another example, follow a best-students model. That’s why they rely so heavily on the L.S.A.T. Yet there’s no reason to believe that a person’s L.S.A.T. scores have much relation to how good a lawyer he will be. In a recent research project funded by the Law School Admission Council, the Berkeley researchers Sheldon Zedeck and Marjorie Shultz identified twenty-six “competencies” that they think effective lawyering demands—among them practical judgment, passion and engagement, legal-research skills, questioning and interviewing skills, negotiation skills, stress management, and so on—and the L.S.A.T. picks up only a handful of them. A law school that wants to select the best possible lawyers has to use a very different admissions process from a law school that wants to select the best possible law students. And wouldn’t we prefer that at least some law schools try to select good lawyers instead of good law students?

This search for good lawyers, furthermore, is necessarily going to be subjective, because things like passion and engagement can’t be measured as precisely as academic proficiency. Subjectivity in the admissions process is not just an occasion for discrimination; it is also, in better times, the only means available for giving us the social outcome we want. The first black captain of the Yale football team was a man named Levi Jackson, who graduated in 1950. Jackson was a hugely popular figure on campus. He went on to be a top executive at Ford, and is credited with persuading the company to hire thousands of African-Americans after the 1967 riots. When Jackson was tapped for the exclusive secret society Skull and Bones, he joked, “If my name had been reversed, I never would have made it.” He had a point. The strategy of discretion that Yale had once used to exclude Jews was soon being used to include people like Levi Jackson.

In the 2001 book “The Game of Life,” James L. Shulman and William Bowen (a former president of Princeton) conducted an enormous statistical analysis on an issue that has become one of the most contentious in admissions: the special preferences given to recruited athletes at selective universities. Athletes, Shulman and Bowen demonstrate, have a large and growing advantage in admission over everyone else. At the same time, they have markedly lower G.P.A.s and S.A.T. scores than their peers. Over the past twenty years, their class rankings have steadily dropped, and they tend to segregate themselves in an “athletic culture” different from the culture of the rest of the college. Shulman and Bowen think the preference given to athletes by the Ivy League is shameful.

Halfway through the book, however, Shulman and Bowen present what they call a “surprising” finding. Male athletes, despite their lower S.A.T. scores and grades, and despite the fact that many of them are members of minorities and come from lower socioeconomic backgrounds than other students, turn out to earn a lot more than their peers. Apparently, athletes are far more likely to go into the high-paying financial-services sector, where they succeed because of their personality and psychological makeup.

Getting In : The New Yorker


All you lazy introverted b*stards hit the gym then hit a beer summit:cheers:
 

Meta Reign

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A lot of Coli nerds never met these kind of people, but I always tell youngsters that people like Baby from Cash Money, or even Soulja Boy may not come across as the most intelligent people but if you ever really met these kind of cats you'll notice one very important thing. . . A crazy work ethic. These are the guys that dedicate 24/7 night in, night grinds that you wouldn't believe. Mix that with just a bit of charisma and common sense, and it's an unbeatable formula for success.

Same goes these athletes. The work ethic they put into their trade is one to envy. NO SCHOOL CAN GIVE THIS TO YOU. Now, as for the white boys at the Ivy League schools. Who are the most successful ones? GWB was a C student. . . But his swag was off the charts. Jamie Diamond? Known as the cool kid on campus.

Never intellectualize yourself too much. To walk amongst men and appear as a commoner is extremely valuable, and if you have the ability to manipulate those around you, you WILL have material success.
 

kash10003

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didn't read much of it, but its dependent on where you stand in your life

in college - classes/ intelligence can get you far

now, after this -> a great deal of people are either weeded out or self selected into certain fields. networking increases its role in getting you far here, but there's still a wide range of skills/intelligence among the young employees. few years in, all those things have equaled out and you are truly competing and working with your peers and seniors and managing your juniors.

at that point i think its self evaluation (whether you are asking the right questions, honest with your self, looking at your weaknesses, working harder/more efficiently) and your diligence (which includes networking)
 

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A lot of Coli nerds never met these kind of people, but I always tell youngsters that people like Baby from Cash Money, or even Soulja Boy may not come across as the most intelligent people but if you ever really met these kind of cats you'll notice one very important thing. . . A crazy work ethic. These are the guys that dedicate 24/7 night in, night grinds that you wouldn't believe. Mix that with just a bit of charisma and common sense, and it's an unbeatable formula for success.

Same goes these athletes. The work ethic they put into their trade is one to envy. NO SCHOOL CAN GIVE THIS TO YOU. Now, as for the white boys at the Ivy League schools. Who are the most successful ones? GWB was a C student. . . But his swag was off the charts. Jamie Diamond? Known as the cool kid on campus.

Never intellectualize yourself too much. To walk amongst men and appear as a commoner is extremely valuable, and if you have the ability to manipulate those around you, you WILL have material success.

powerful posting
 
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Meta right success is more than just brains. It's personality and drive. Nobody likes a square.

I'm changing careers right now I have a few stories to share about this very subject.

Everyone strives for a high GPA for these entry level jobs but....

I know a kid with a 2.6 who got into a regional Financial Accounting firm simply because he played basket ball in college, and a partner at the firm did as well. They never asked for his grades one time.


A few days ago I was at a career fair. There was a large national firm there, and as I walked around meeting and networking, I noticed this late 20's filipino woman, from that firm, kept looking at me.

Towards the end of the night, I was going to say hello to a firm that I had already completed a second round interview with, and I noticed that Filipino woman looking at me mad hard. So, I thought I better say hi. as I stood inline waiting to talk to them, she looked at me, pushed the person she was talking to aside, and told me how to apply. There wasn't any small talk or standard meet-n-greet. I tried to talk get to know her anyways.

Long-story short, I sent her a personalized thank you note the morning right after, and I got a response within 20 minutes, telling me how to apply and who to talk to. She was so excited to talk to me, that her response was full of all kinds of grammatical errors and typos.

She's a senior manager BTW.

I may get a job at this place not because I'm highly qualified or experienced. She thought I was cute and that's all that was about. This wasn't some bullshyt regional firm either...

Crazy how life works out.
 

Chris.B

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Meta right success is more than just brains. It's personality and drive. Nobody likes a square.

I'm changing careers right now I have a few stories to share about this very subject.

Everyone strives for a high GPA for these entry level jobs but....

I know a kid with a 2.6 who got into a regional Financial Accounting firm simply because he played basket ball in college, and a partner at the firm did as well. They never asked for his grades one time.


A few days ago I was at a career fair. There was a large national firm there, and as I walked around meeting and networking, I noticed this late 20's filipino woman, from that firm, kept looking at me.

Towards the end of the night, I was going to say hello to a firm that I had already completed a second round interview with, and I noticed that Filipino woman looking at me mad hard. So, I thought I better say hi. as I stood inline waiting to talk to them, she looked at me, pushed the person she was talking to aside, and told me how to apply. There wasn't any small talk or standard meet-n-greet. I tried to talk get to know her anyways.

Long-story short, I sent her a personalized thank you note the morning right after, and I got a response within 20 minutes, telling me how to apply and who to talk to. She was so excited to talk to me, that her response was full of all kinds of grammatical errors and typos.

She's a senior manager BTW.

I may get a job at this place not because I'm highly qualified or experienced. She thought I was cute and that's all that was about. This wasn't some bullshyt regional firm either...

Crazy how life works out.

I would have tried to get it in if I were you...:jawalrus:
 
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I would have tried to get it in if I were you...:jawalrus:

Another girl from another large national firm, sent me a pretty long thank you response. She referred to me with a nickname too, which I felt was very informal and inappropriate. The whole E-mail was bordering on facebook language. She told me I was a fit for the firm and to ask any questions.

She was bad Chinese girl too.......man. I'm not going to be wearing my wedding ring to any networking event. It's a liability.
 

Serious

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Meta right success is more than just brains. It's personality and drive. Nobody likes a square.

I'm changing careers right now I have a few stories to share about this very subject.

Everyone strives for a high GPA for these entry level jobs but....

I know a kid with a 2.6 who got into a regional Financial Accounting firm simply because he played basket ball in college, and a partner at the firm did as well. They never asked for his grades one time.


A few days ago I was at a career fair. There was a large national firm there, and as I walked around meeting and networking, I noticed this late 20's filipino woman, from that firm, kept looking at me.

Towards the end of the night, I was going to say hello to a firm that I had already completed a second round interview with, and I noticed that Filipino woman looking at me mad hard. So, I thought I better say hi. as I stood inline waiting to talk to them, she looked at me, pushed the person she was talking to aside, and told me how to apply. There wasn't any small talk or standard meet-n-greet. I tried to talk get to know her anyways.

Long-story short, I sent her a personalized thank you note the morning right after, and I got a response within 20 minutes, telling me how to apply and who to talk to. She was so excited to talk to me, that her response was full of all kinds of grammatical errors and typos.

She's a senior manager BTW.

I may get a job at this place not because I'm highly qualified or experienced. She thought I was cute and that's all that was about. This wasn't some bullshyt regional firm either...

Crazy how life works out.
smug_biden_answer_10_xlarge.jpeg
 

No1

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@Serious I see that you're rolling with the winners now :whoo:
 
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Even when it does come to school it'll all come down to how hard you work. A social life is great no doubt, and it does strengthen networks, but you have to be smart enough to know when you're ok with the material to ditch studying it for a Friday night out.

What good is a network when you fail out.
 

Gallo

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Another girl from another large national firm, sent me a pretty long thank you response. She referred to me with a nickname too, which I felt was very informal and inappropriate. The whole E-mail was bordering on facebook language. She told me I was a fit for the firm and to ask any questions.

She was bad Chinese girl too.......man. I'm not going to be wearing my wedding ring to any networking event. It's a liability.

Taking off your ring may actually hurt you. I've read a few articles on employer preference for married men. That could even be one of reasons those broads were so keen on you.
 

Pool_Shark

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I think some of these things matter depending on what your trying to accomplish and how you determine success. If your goal is to manage a large company or earn a lot of money then sure those skills would be vital to reaching your goals.

but

If your trying to come up with some crazy ass revolutionary shyt then I think brains matter more. On the other hand you could argue that without motivation or social skills that person could never navigate himself to get the funding for his experiments or whatever. I don't know I just don't like the sound of gaining knowledge and thirst for understanding to equal bad.
 
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