Let's talk about the Negro Leagues vs MLB

mr x

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Here's an interesting article accompanied by stats on the negro leagues vs mlb teams and negro leagues and mlb vs other levels.

The negro league team wins head to head against the mlb, but the mlb has a better record against all the other level of play

The Semis, Part Two | Scott Simkus


The negro leagues won 102 games, while the mlb won 82 head to head

I already know some key points, like the mlb teams were incomplete, but I still think it's interesting, seeing how the mlb was portrayed as being the dominant league.

*I would post the charts but when you paste it comes out messed
 

ComputersPutin

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The excuses on the comments are crazy. There were a few variables but not enough to change the overall truth that the Negro league had was better.
 

HHR

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I'd love to talk about the Negro Leagues....but I can see where this thread is heading on this forum so I'll wait and see if it's worth it :laugh:
 

mr x

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I'd love to talk about the Negro Leagues....but I can see where this thread is heading on this forum so I'll wait and see if it's worth it :laugh:

:heh:

Speak your mind breh. I'm not very judgmental. I would love to hear your input.
:shake:
 

HHR

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I love this debate, for what it's worth...and have the utmost respect for the Negro League legacy...but there really is no simple answer to this question.

FWIW, I'll post this from another forum...it's about 6 years old

I’ve read in a few sources where Negro Leaguers beat Major Leaguers 60-65% of the time they played each other. Some people interpret this to mean that blacks tried harder in inter-league exhibition games, or else major leaguer teams consisted of rag-tag combinations of assorted players playing out of position. And some have interpreted this to mean that Negro League teams were better than the Major Leaguers. In my opinion, all things being equal if teams from one league are winning 60+% of the games versus teams from another league, I would argue that the former is a stronger league than the latter.

I decided to gather as much info as I could find and interpret the data available. So I input all of the games listed in John Holway’s “Complete Book of Baseball’s Negro Leagues” into a spreadsheet. I also found several games on ProQuest that were not listed in his book and got all of the games from Bob Feller’s barnstorming from the book by John Sickels. I kept track of the dates, teams, scores, number of major leaguer position players, and number of major league pitchers. Most of the games from Holway's book are based upon games in the East and Midwest. Games from the California Winter League are not included.

Holway states in his book that black big leaguers won 57.1% of the games against white major leaguers. He credits Cuban teams, which usually consisted of several players from the Negro Leagues, with having a 43.5% winning percentage versus white major leaguers. I know there’s been other research but I think that Holway’s information is the source of the idea that Negro League teams won most of the inter-league match-ups.

Holway states that he considers a team to be a “big league” team if they have five or more white major leaguers - including the pitcher. Looking at the data, one of the biggest variables that relates to the won/lost records of games between Major League vs. Negro League is the number of major leaguers present on the team. Another variable is whether the major league team consists of players from the same team versus a mix of players from multiple teams.

Here is what the data shows in games between teams from both leagues involving a major league pitcher. The number of non-pitchers is listed in parentheses after the major league team. I broke it down into 3 levels. Major league pitcher plus zero to three position players. Major league pitchers plus 4 to 6 position players and major league pitchers plus 7 or more position players. Won Lost is indicated by the record of Negro League teams. Ties counted as 0.5 wins. Games included are between 1902 – 1946. “All Star” teams consists of major leaguers from multiple teams. “Major League Team” is a team with all or most of the players from the same team.

Negro League Teams vs. Major League “All Stars” (0-3)
36 - 12 (.750)

Negro League Teams vs. Major League “All Stars” (4-6)
23 - 15 (.605)

Negro League Teams vs. Major League “All Stars” (7+)
41 – 49 (.456)


Negro League Teams vs. Major League Team (4-6)
9 - 5 (.643)

Negro League Teams vs. Major League Team (7+)
23 - 29 (.442)


Total

Negro League vs. Major Leaguers (4-6)
32 – 20 (.615)
Negro League vs. Major Leaguers (7+)
64 – 78 (.451)

My interpretation of this data is that Negro League teams were very strong in comparison to Major Leaguers teams. Negro League teams overmatched teams of a few major leaguers playing with minor leaguers winning 75% of the games. Playing against teams with 5-7 major leaguers, the Negro league teams still won over 60% of the games. Against nearly full to full major league teams, the Negro League teams won 45% of the games. I think this shows the strength of the Negro League teams. They were extremely competitive in games against Major Leaguers. At the same time, it also shows the strength of the Major League teams. When complete or nearly complete ML teams played against Negro League teams they were the stronger league by this measure.

Another way to measure the quality of the leagues is to compare their records versus common competition. Major leaguers as well as Negro Leaguers often played against Cuban teams. Here is a record of the games by Negro League and Major League Teams against Cuban teams when they played during a similar span of time:

Major Leaguers record versus Cuba from 1908 – 1921
92 – 61 (.601)

Negro League Teams versus Cuba from 1903 – 1925
65 – 71 (.478)

The Major League teams were clearly superior to the Negro League teams in their performance versus Cuban teams. What I take from this is that the Cuban teams are very strong. The Negro League was obviously a very powerful league. I think that several NL teams could have competed in the Major leagues. But this data shows me that the Major Leagues were clearly stronger and I think that the idea that black teams routinely beat Major League teams comes down to an interpretation of the data. If you take a loose interpretation of “big league” team, then that’s a true statement. I don’t think that there is a need to make a loose definition just to make the point that the Negro League teams were strong. The evidence shows that they were a “Major League” even while measuring them against a more reasonable definition of “big league” team.

Overall, I don't think it's fair to say that either was clearly better than the other without complete information...which we'll never get unfortunately. What is clear is that the Negro Leaguers were much better than they were given credit for at the time, but to be fair, I don't think anyone still believes that they were merely the equivalent of the low minors.
 

mr x

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very fair assessment. It's impossible to really know. If only the tv was invented 50 years earlier. We could really see how good these players were in both leagues.

I could imagine a negro league vs mlb all-star match would(or could) be big tv back then
 

mr x

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also, your post shows that there were very strong teams elsewhere in the world.

World baseball classic next year brehs:takedat:

-Can Japan 3 peat? :win:

-Will the Dominican republic stop underachieving?:shaq2:

-Will the U.S. reclaim America's pastime?:leon:

STAY TUNED!!!!
 

HHR

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Cuban teams were insanely good.

Cristobal Torriente >

Indianapolis ABC's manager C.I. Taylor stated, "If I see Torriente walking up the other side of the street, I would say, 'There walks a ballclub.'"
 
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