India as a future super power? 🇮🇳

[Imback]

I gave you the link once already:

India's per capita health spend highest in nearly 15 years: Health ministry data

India's real per capita health spending in 2019-20 was the highest since 2004-05, reaching ₹3,516.

www.hindustantimes.com

Yes, I posted it to kill your claim that India has some sort of massive public health system.

Their government-funded healthcare is fukking bare bones. They spend a tiny fraction of the money per-person than we doing. Suggesting that Indian healthcare is ANYTHING like anything that could ever exist in the USA was an absolutely ridiculous idea to throw into the conversation.

They spend money on patients going to private hospitals.

Like 99% of universal healthcare systems.


The us includes investments in healthcare (lots of pharma), healthcare real estate, social programs, clinical trials, research funding and a shyt ton of more stuff

They only use the amounts they pay the doctors

 

[Professor Emeritus]

Article released about a week ago

‘It’s a tax on disability’: rising English social care costs force many into debt | Social care | The Guardian

Nothing in that article references your claim at all.

This was your claim:

Uk also caps spending on these services at a lifetime value of 75k.

So if you go past 75k in your LIFETIME got to open that wallet playboy . 100% of the cost are on you

I'm pretty sure you got that exactly opposite of reality. If you spend over $75k on care in your life, then you NEVER have to spend another penny. Can you support your version of the claim or not?



Also, I noticed another deceptive point on your part. You said:

We pay for all those services in Medicaid and Medicare until you die. We also send them money

A lot “universal healthcare” systems have tons of carve outs like this.

But in the exact article you quote, it says that only people with assets have to pay for their own care. People with no assets in the UK have all their social care paid for, just like Medicaid recipients. People who aren't on Medicaid in the USA are fukked way worse than people in the NHS, cause the USA doesn't have no $75k cap on lifetime costs.

On top of that, it's not true that just anyone on Medicare can get their social care paid for free either. My own grandmother had to have care due to dementia for about 7-8 years before she passed away, and for a long time all that care was coming out of pocket. It wasn't until years in that they were able to get a "medicare room" in the care home that Medicare finally covered.


I'm not going to believe a single one of your claims going forward, because it looks like a lot of what you're saying is made up off the top of your head and doesn't mesh with reality. Either provide citations or STFU.

 

[Professor Emeritus]

They spend money on patients going to private hospitals.

Like 99% of universal healthcare systems.


The us includes investments in healthcare (lots of pharma), healthcare real estate, social programs, clinical trials, research funding and a shyt ton of more stuff

They only use the amounts they pay the doctors

Nah, this is total bullshyt. I quoted you the exact normalized figures from the World Bank:

World Bank Open Data

Free and open access to global development data

data.worldbank.org

I can't believe you're still running with such a ridiculous point anyway. India isn't even a first world country, it's health care system is NOTHING like "Medicare for All" or any other system proposed in the USA. You just randomly decided to connect it to some right-wing pet peeve you have with no justification whatsoever.


If you want to make a point, provide a legitimate, trustworthy citation for it. After your false claims about sickle cell treatment, Indian health care costs, and the NHS's $75k limit, no one is going to trust anything you have to say without a citation.

 

[Imback]

Nah, this is total bullshyt. I quoted you the exact normalized figures from the World Bank:

World Bank Open Data

Free and open access to global development data

data.worldbank.org

If you want to make a point, provide a legitimate, trustworthy citation for it. After your false claims about sickle cell treatment, Indian health care costs, and the NHS's $75k limit, no one is going to trust anything you have to say without a citation.

Page 7 this is the Indians governments definition on the calculations. This comes from them directly


https://main.mohfw.gov.in/sites/default/files/NHA_Estimates_Report_2015-16_0.pdf

Just bc the world bank aggregate self reported healthcare expenditure numbers doesn’t mean each country has the same way they calculate it.


Any FYI this is for almost all world bank numbers not just healthcare. The countries create their own definitions of the measurements

 

[Professor Emeritus]

Page 7 this is the Indians governments definition on the calculations. This comes from them directly


https://main.mohfw.gov.in/sites/default/files/NHA_Estimates_Report_2015-16_0.pdf

Just bc the world bank aggregate self reported healthcare expenditure numbers doesn’t mean each country has the same way they calculate it.


Any FYI this is for almost all world bank numbers not just healthcare. The countries create their own definitions of the measurements

Your own link proves you're lying though. Do you just post random shyt and then assume no one will read it, or that you'll trick 2-3 people before I debunk you?


You claimed:

They only use the amounts they pay the doctors

Yet your OWN LINK says:

Current Health Expenditure attributed to Government Hospitals is Rs. 70,954 crores (14.3%) and Private Hospitals Rs. 1, 28,590 (26%). Expenditures incurred on other Government Providers (incl. PHC, Dispensaries and Family Planning Centres) is Rs. 38,644 crores (7.9%), Other Private Providers (incl. private clinics) is Rs. 24,490 crores (5%), Providers of Patient Transport and Emergency Rescue is Rs. 21,604 crores (4.4%), Medical and Diagnostic laboratories is Rs. 22,715 crores (4.6%), Pharmacies is Rs. 1,38,061 crores (27.9%), Other Retailers is Rs. 792 crores (0.1%), Providers of Preventive care is Rs. 25,048 crores (5%). About Rs. 15,483 crores (3.1%) is attributed to Providers of Health System Administration and Financing.

Current health expenditure attributed to Inpatient Curative Care is Rs. 1,70,407 crores (34.4%), Outpatient curative care is Rs. 85,750 crores (17.3%), Patient Transportation is Rs. 21,604 crores (4.4%), Laboratory and Imaging services is Rs. 21,315 crores (4.3%), Prescribed Medicines is Rs. 1,36,364 crores (27.5%), Over The Counter (OTC) Medicines is Rs. 1,697 crores (0.3%), Therapeutic Appliances and Medical Goods is Rs. 792 crores (0.1%), Preventive Care is Rs. 34,033 crores (6.9%), and others is Rs. 7,742 crores (1.6%). About Rs. 15,483 crores (3.1%) is attributed to Governance and Health System Administration.

Total Pharmaceutical Expenditure is 35.4% of CHE (includes prescribed medicines, over the counter drugs and those provided during an inpatient, outpatient or any other event involving a contact with health care provider). Expenditure on Traditional, Complementary and Alternative Medicine (TCAM) is 11.9% of CHE*

Current Health Expenditure attributed to Primary Care is 45.1%, Secondary Care is 35.2%, Tertiary care is 15.2% and governance and supervision is 3.1%. When this is disaggregated; Government expenditure on Primary Care is 51.5%, Secondary Care is 22% and Tertiary Care is 13%. Private expenditure on Primary Care is 43%, Secondary Care is 40% and Tertiary Care is 16.2%.

That's way more than "only the amounts they pay the doctors", you were completely bullshytting.



And NOTHING you've posted is anything more than a deflection from the fact that it was stupid as fukk to take the ridiculously underfunded Indian health care system and claim it was the equivalent of "Medicare for All" and what people wanted to bring to America. Your own link says government hospitals only account for 14% of that $58/person in health care expenditure, so that's $8/person spend on government hospitals each year.




If you really think the calculations are so grossly different that it seriously impacts the bottom line, then PROVIDE A LINK THAT PROVES THAT CLAIM SPECIFICALLY AND QUOTE THE CLAIM. No one can take your interpretations of evidence seriously at this point because you've been wrong every time.

 

[Imback]

Your own link proves you're lying though. Do you just post random shyt and then assume no one will read it, or that you'll trick 2-3 people before I debunk you?


You claimed:


Yet your OWN LINK says:




That's way more than "only the amounts they pay the doctors", you were completely bullshytting.



And NOTHING you've posted is anything more than a deflection from the fact that it was stupid as fukk to take the ridiculously underfunded Indian health care system and claim it was the equivalent of "Medicare for All" and what people wanted to bring to America. Your own link says government hospitals only account for 14% of that $58/person in health care expenditure, so that's $8/person spend on government hospitals each year.

My grandad focused on sickle cell procedures and created a sickle cell medical tourism program for black patients worldwide, that’s why I know so much about this shyt. He died of the disease but lived longer than expected.

I think you just lack understanding comparing doctor driven services like India posted to the US healthcare system. Everything you listed is a medical treatment process.

Everything you listed is a doctor driven medical process. The us healthcare calculations are way way different.

Just to completely show you how off you are.

Here’s what we include in our healthcare expenditure calculations that’s missing from your list by bard:
Psychiatry/mental health
Home healthcare
Disability services
Medical research
Healthcare real estate
Drug development
Rehab
Medical technology (tech and device)
Pharmaceutical development
National Government healthcare admin programs
Outreach processes
Clinical trials
Government loans to providers
Dental services
Dialysis (huge bucket)
Palliative care
Nursing homes
Workers compensation
Private equity and venture capital investments

I deleted the others that were too small.

You’re comparing apples to oranges

We don’t calculate it the same way

 

[Professor Emeritus]

They spend money on patients going to private hospitals.

Like 99% of universal healthcare systems.

I just noticed this was another lie. India only recently implemented any sort of program like this (the Ayushman Bharat Yojana scheme), and it has barely been rolled out and accounts for a tiny minority of total patients. The vast majority of people who can't afford health care in India go to government hospitals, not private hospitals, and only a small fraction of the patients at private hospitals are there due to "universal healthcare".

 

[Imback]

I just noticed this was another lie. India only recently implemented any sort of program like this (the Ayushman Bharat Yojana scheme), and it has barely been rolled out and accounts for a tiny minority of total patients. The vast majority of people who can't afford health care in India go to government hospitals, not private hospitals, and only a small fraction of the patients at private hospitals are there due to "universal healthcare".

The pdf I sent you.

Private hospitals had a larger market share than public in 2016


You have to stop calling me a liar bc you don’t assess information properly. They literally posted a graph

 

[Professor Emeritus]

The pdf I sent you.

Private hospitals had a larger market share than public in 2016


You have to stop calling me a liar bc you don’t assess information properly. They literally posted a graph

Those people at private hospitals are paying out of pocket, dumbass, they're not being covered by the government. The vast majority of the Indian middle-class and wealthy avoids government hospitals entirely because they're horrifically underfunded and the standard of facilities is abysmal. Even poor people go private plenty, but outside of a brand new, only barely implemented scheme (a scheme which didn't even exist in 2016, when that graph was made), they have to pay out-of-pocket when they go to private hospitals too.

It's like you can't even follow your own argument or interpret anything you link. This is why I said you need to use EXACT QUOTES to support your claims, because you keep wanting to claim stuff that isn't true in any reality.

You're proving my point breh. India's system is nothing like "Medicare For All".

 

[Professor Emeritus]

babble

Nah breh, we're not taking anything else on your personal authority in this thread. Directly link and quote every specific claim you make with a trusted source explaining how it is relevant. I'm not trusting your interpretation for anything. I can already see multiple false claims you're making there (like your claim that the Indian list doesn't include mental health services), but there's no need to break down every item because people can already see you're untrustworthy.

I'm not listening to one more word you have to say about Indian healthcare spending until you provide a link with a trusted source specifically stating that American per capita healthcare spending and Indian per capita healthcare spending would be basically comparable, if only the Indians counted everything.



Already in this thread alone, I've caught you claiming:


* That India's ridiculously underfunded health care system, with only 14% of their meagre health expenditures going to government hospitals, would somehow be comparable to Medicare-For-All in America.

* That India's position as a pharma exporter somehow has relevance to their in-country healthcare expenditures.

* That less than 25% of the people receiving healthcare were counted in those Indian figures

* That England didn't treat sickle cell cases until 2022

* That England had never approved a sickle cell treatment until crizanlizumab

* You big-upped crizanlizumab as a treatment and made it the basis of your entire argument, while ignoring that the latest studies show it has no better outcomes than a placebo, while also having more side effects than the placebo.

* You big-upped England's supposed failure to treat sickle-cell, while ignoring that MORE sickle cell patients survive to adulthood in England than in the USA.

* You claimed that UK caps social care costs at $75k and then forces the patient to pay everything after that, when it was the complete opposite - they actually cover everything for the patient after $75k in lifetime costs.

* That Indian health care expenditure figures didn't include private hospitals

* That Indian health care expenditures only include what they pay doctors

* That Indian health care expenditures don't include mental health services, pallative care, rehab, admin, etc....



That's a lot to be wrong about in this short of a conversation.


Not to mention how ridiculously stupid it was to suggest that Indian healthcare, with only bare minimum services for the poor, has any relationship to Medicare For All in America.

Conversation is over, what a fukking waste of time.

 

[Imback]

Those people at private hospitals are paying out of pocket, dumbass, they're not being covered by the government. The vast majority of the Indian middle-class and wealthy avoids government hospitals entirely because they're horrifically underfunded and the standard of facilities is abysmal. Even poor people go private plenty, but outside of a brand new, only barely implemented scheme, they have to pay out-of-pocket when they go to private hospitals too.

It's like you can't even follow your own argument or interpret anything you link. This is why I said you need to use EXACT QUOTES to support your claims, because you keep wanting to claim stuff that isn't true in any reality.

You're proving my point breh. India's system is nothing like "Medicare For All".

Again you have such a confirmation bias you’ll make stuff up.
The government who insures poor ppl. The vast majority of patients on government healthcare go to private hospitals and then government hospitals 2nd

You just made up this stat. Completely fabricated

Private hospitals: The self-pay segment dominated the market in FY 2022, accounting for 40.66% of total revenue. The second-largest segment was government payer, followed by corporate insurer.

The self-pay segment is expected to decline in market share, falling from 40.66% in FY 2022 to 35.21% in FY 2027. The expansion of insurance coverage by both government and corporate insurers is expected to reduce the self-pay market segment's share.

India Private Hospital Sector Report 2023: The Self-pay Segment Dominated the Market in FY 2022 - Forecasts to 2027 - ResearchAndMarkets.com

About 70% of the rural population and 80% of the urban residents rely on private hospitals.


I think this conversation is interesting and I do believe it should be discussed. But I think we’re derailing the thread. We should create a new one if you want to discuss healthcare.

There are many factors happening that will contribute to India becoming a superpower and we should stay on topic

 

[Professor Emeritus]

Again you have such a confirmation bias you’ll make stuff up.
The government who insures poor ppl. The vast majority of patients on government healthcare go to private hospitals and then government hospitals 2nd

You just made up this stat. Completely fabricated

Private hospitals: The self-pay segment dominated the market in FY 2022, accounting for 40.66% of total revenue. The second-largest segment was government payer, followed by corporate insurer.

The self-pay segment is expected to decline in market share, falling from 40.66% in FY 2022 to 35.21% in FY 2027. The expansion of insurance coverage by both government and corporate insurers is expected to reduce the self-pay market segment's share.

India Private Hospital Sector Report 2023: The Self-pay Segment Dominated the Market in FY 2022 - Forecasts to 2027 - ResearchAndMarkets.com

About 70% of the rural population and 80% of the urban residents rely on private hospitals.


I think this conversation is interesting and I do believe it should be discussed. But I think we’re derailing the thread. We should create a new one if you want to discuss healthcare.

There are many factors happening that will contribute to India becoming a superpower and we should stay on topic

Breh, you're fukking lost. That link only reiterates what I already told you. Again.

It's hilarious that you're even writing "the vast majority of patients on government healthcare". How many Indians do you think were on government healthcare for those 2016 stats you posted earlier? Do you even realize that the comprehensive government healthcare scheme in India wasn't even launched until 2018? That it has still barely been rolled out? That the vast majority of poor people either go to government hospitals or pay out-of-pocket for private? That if you walked into an Indian slum right now and asked people there if they had government healthcare coverage which allowed them to use private hospitals at the government's cost, the vast majority would say no?

Come on, man, tell us how many Indian hospitals you've been inside of or how many poor Indians you've helped access hospital care.




Stop the deflections. Provide a link with a trusted source stating that American per capita healthcare spending and Indian per capita healthcare spending would be basically comparable, if only the Indians counted everything. Until then, you're just wasting people's time.

 

[Imback]

Nah breh, we're not taking anything else on your personal authority in this thread. Directly link and quote every specific claim you make with a trusted source explaining how it is relevant. I'm not trusting your interpretation for anything. I can already see multiple false claims you're making there (like your claim that the Indian list doesn't include mental health services), but there's no need to break down every item because people can already see you're untrustworthy.

I'm not listening to one more word you have to say about Indian healthcare spending until you provide a link with a trusted source specifically stating that American per capita healthcare spending and Indian per capita healthcare spending would be basically comparable, if only the Indians counted everything.

Never said this. It’d be impossible to figure out who’s getting the contracts for real estate, drug develop and other nefarious ways to way make money in healthcare.

There’s zero insight into how much all these services are and how much the government pays them.

They don’t include the numbers for a reason

Already in this thread alone, I've caught you claiming:


* That India's ridiculously underfunded health care system, with only 14% of their meagre health expenditures going to government hospitals, would somehow be comparable to Medicare-For-All in America.

Again numbers aren’t the same but ok.

* That India's position as a pharma exporter somehow has relevance to their in-country healthcare expenditures.

We include pharma exports in ours.

* That less than 25% of the people receiving healthcare were counted in those Indian figures

Dk what this means

* That England didn't treat sickle cell cases until 2022

They don’t. The top treatment to cure sickle cell treatment is through stem cells.

They haven’t approved it for 100% of patients.

Here’s there methodology with tons of carve outs:

Can I have a stem cell transplant if I have sickle cell disease?​

Yes, you might be able to have a stem cell transplant to cure your sickle cell disease. You can read more about what a stem cell transplant involves in the Understanding stem cell transplants section on our website. This treatment has been an option on the NHS for adults in the UK since 2020.

You are likely to only be offered a stem cell transplant if the benefits outweigh the risks. In this case, you may have severe sickle cell disease which:

• cannot be controlled with pain management or other treatments
• means you spend a lot of time in hospital to treat your acute pain episodes
• affects your quality of life so you cannot go to work, take part in education, socialise, or carry out normal day-to-day activities
• causes or puts you at risk of complications such as a stroke, organ dysfunction (where your organs don't work properly), acute chest syndrome (a lung condition causing chest pain and breathing difficulties), and infections
• puts you at risk of death.

You have to be on your death bed to get the one treatment to cure you and then you have to wait to be treated after they approve it.

Their approval numbers are abysmal. So rich black ppl come to America

* That England had never approved a sickle cell treatment until crizanlizumab

One drug until 2022.

We’ve had 10 drugs approved and multiple surgery processes from 1970-2022.

10x+ advantage

* You big-upped crizanlizumab as a treatment and made it the basis of your entire argument, while ignoring that the latest studies show it has no better outcomes than a placebo, while also having more side effects than the placebo.

Sad you would even post this. Go fukk yourself .
This is why black conditions don’t get treatments.

How many drugs have white ppl had with the same efficacy rates?


You wouldn’t approve it. That’s why we don’t trust Nikkas with your mindsets.

* You big-upped England's supposed failure to treat sickle-cell, while ignorin

that MORE sickle cell patients survive to adulthood in England than in the USA.

The UK doesn’t test for sickle cell like the US. We made it a requirement to test adults with symptoms (which took years!) and are working our way down to kids.

Just got the ncaa to be required to do it. New NCAA Requirements for Sickle Cell Testing - York College Athletics

* That UK caps social care costs at $75k and then forces the patient to pay everything after that, when it was the complete opposite - they actually cover everything for the patient after $75k in lifetime costs.

Not true

* That Indian health care expenditure figures didn't include private hospitals

Never said this. Post it. A made up lie

* That Indian health care expenditures only include what they pay doctors

I showed you. Were you under the impressions the pharmacy and medical imaging services aren’t apart of doctors compensation?

It’s your lack of understanding

* That Indian health care expenditures don't include mental health services, pallative care, rehab, admin, etc....



That's a lot to be wrong about in this short of a conversation.


Not to mention how ridiculously stupid it was to suggest that Indian healthcare, with only bare minimum services for the poor, has any relationship to Medicare For All in America.

Conversation is over, what a fukking waste of time.

They don’t. Show me where they do.

 

[Imback]

Breh, you're fukking lost. That link only reiterates what I already told you. Again.

It's hilarious that you're even writing "the vast majority of patients on government healthcare". How many Indians do you think were on government healthcare for those 2016 stats you posted earlier? Do you even realize that the comprehensive government healthcare scheme in India wasn't even launched until 2018? That it has still barely been rolled out? That the vast majority of poor people either go to government hospitals or pay out-of-pocket for private? That if you walked into an Indian slum right now and asked people there if they had government healthcare coverage which allowed them to use private hospitals at the government's cost, the vast majority would say no?

Come on, man, tell us how many Indian hospitals you've been inside of or how many poor Indians you've helped access hospital care.




Stop the deflections. Provide a link with a trusted source stating that American per capita healthcare spending and Indian per capita healthcare spending would be basically comparable, if only the Indians counted everything. Until then, you're just wasting people's time.

You’re referring to the state based system. Not national


I’ve never helped any Indians. I have contributed to helping thousands of black ppl worldwide tho. Not as much as I used to do as a youngin tho.

 

[88m3]

India Train Crash: Live Updates: Relatives Identify Crash Victims as Modi Visits Derailment Site

At least 288 people were killed and more than 700 injured in what officials described as a “three-way accident” involving two passenger trains and a freight train in the Indian state of Odisha.

www.nytimes.com

that's crazy