In an effort to NOT turn HL into the BAD KTL....

Brown_Pride

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So it's been a long standing tradition within the confines of online hip hop intellectualism (:jawalrus:) for debates to follow a particular course.

Stage 1. The Claim
This is the portion of a thread where someone states a thought, claim, idea, hypothesis.

Stage 2. Rebuttal/Support
This is where someone comes and either supports "The Claim" or refutes it.

Stage 3. Intellectual Argument
This stage is often the shortest lived. This is the part of the thread where ideas, thoughts and beliefs are shared, exchanged, challenged and sometimes adopted.

Stage 4. The Shyt Storm
This is inevitably where 90% of all threads end up. At some point or another threads will degenerate into a game of the dozens. NOt that this isn't fun sometimes but when it comes too soon or when stage 3 isn't completed you essentially have a still born thread--partly developed, filled with potential but dead.

So in an effort to avoid this and "mod" ourselves a bit. I propose we have a mechanism to call a vote of sorts on a thread victor (i.e. your idea is judged by a jury of your peers)...

Now, now quite down i know many of you made this face immediately :rudy:

Hear me out though.

For this to work the "sides" shyt that plays out needs to die. If we do this we need to remain honest about the thread, NOT previous threads, not hurt feelings but rely solely on what has been presented in the thread by the parties who are arguing.

So while you might agree with someone and the IDEA they have if you take a "juror" approach and look at JUST THE EVIDENCE (the ideas and arguments presented in the thread) you should be able to arrive at a conclusion as to who won.

With that being the idea I say a person in a thread can call for a vote, the other parties must agree and THEY must be the one to post the poll (this will be a sign of agreement).

IF they do not agree they can post further, if the party who requested the vote calls for a vote again then at this point HE can create a vote thread.

In other words
Step 1. Party 1 calls for a vote
Step 2. Party 2 either creates a vote poll or post further
Step 3. Party 1, after party 2 has posted and given 24 hours, can create a vote thread.

Whatta ya think? I'm opening this up to adjustment and input. I'll reserve the second post for adjustments to the over all idea and let's see if we can't arrive at a way to dead some of the non productive shyt around here.
 

Dusty Bake Activate

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No. Bad idea. We're supposed to be debating and discussing things productively. If it turns into graded contests, it'll just be about "winning" instead of teaching and learning. People would just start trying their best to "win" and get the most votes instead of sharing ideas in a constructive manner.

There isn't always a winner either. Like for instance, in the thread about how active the OWS movement should be in the political system, me and that guy TrueEpic had a productive debate. Neither one of us "won" or "lost." We just exchanged views.

Also, Higher Learning posters and lurkers are not always going to be the most accurate judge of who had the better argument. It is possible for the majority to be wrong. Plus this would just put the asskissing and dikkriding on steroids and you would have posters cliquing up even more forming voting blocs.
 

Hannibal Fox

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No. Horrible idea. We're supposed to be debating and discussing things productively. If it turns into graded contests, it'll just be about "winning" instead of teaching and learning. People would just start trying their best to "win" and get the most votes instead of sharing ideas in a constructive manner. There isn't always a winner either. Like for instance, in the thread about how active the OWS movement should be in the political system, me and that guy TrueEpic had a productive debate. Neither one of us "won" or "lost." We just exchanged views.

Isn't that what a lot of threads/posts boil down to around here?


(I know that mentality isn't confined to just this site)
 

ogc163

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Isn't that what a lot of threads/posts boil down to around here?


(I know that mentality isn't confined to just this site)

In some cases yes, but the overall goal is to share ideas and hopefully walk away from discussion/debate learning something new or re-thinking your own beliefs/position. Implementing a point/voting system would lead to bitterness and feelings of bias. I'm open to ideas making HL better, but this is a counterproductive idea to say the very least.
 

Hannibal Fox

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In some cases yes, but the overall goal is to share ideas and hopefully walk away from discussion/debate learning something new or re-thinking your own beliefs/position. Implementing a point/voting system would lead to bitterness and feelings of bias. I'm open to ideas making HL better, but this is a counterproductive idea to say the very least.

Oh I'm with you but I've noticed a lot of threads seem to get competitive very quickly.
 

Brown_Pride

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Fair enough i see some of the inherent problems that could come with this, i saw them when I posted it.

Be honest though most "idea exchanges" are predicated on "winning", especially in HL. (re:KTL) be it a part of "our" culture or what not the idea of "winning" is often what motives some of the best posts.

Saying that "winning" as a motivation is bad for idea exchange is like saying paying teachers is a bad idea for education. If anything "winning" would bring about more quality debates as there's actually more on the line.

In some cases yes, but the overall goal is to share ideas and hopefully walk away from discussion/debate learning something new or re-thinking your own beliefs/position.
Ideally yes, in actuality not usually. The idea here again being a way to foster the very goal you stated.

As for trolls and the vote.
Maybe then a 2/3 approach, or a "council" of sorts from "trusted" members to judge a thread (again with the idea that the jury could maintain some semblance of intellectual honesty and judge a thread on the thread alone.)

This isn't to determine who's idea is right or wrong but to conclude threads where ideas have been exchanged and pehaps need a way to end. The victor would leave knowing he defending his point, the loser knows where he lost it now and could fine tune and perhaps come back stronger, this doesn't hamper intellectual growth, it cultivates it.
 

ogc163

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Fair enough i see some of the inherent problems that could come with this, i saw them when I posted it.

Be honest though most "idea exchanges" are predicated on "winning", especially in HL. (re:KTL) be it a part of "our" culture or what not the idea of "winning" is often what motives some of the best posts.

Saying that "winning" as a motivation is bad for idea exchange is like saying paying teachers is a bad idea for education. If anything "winning" would bring about more quality debates as there's actually more on the line.

Ideally yes, in actuality not usually. The idea here again being a way to foster the very goal you stated.

As for trolls and the vote.
Maybe then a 2/3 approach, or a "council" of sorts from "trusted" members to judge a thread (again with the idea that the jury could maintain some semblance of intellectual honesty and judge a thread on the thread alone.)

This isn't to determine who's idea is right or wrong but to conclude threads where ideas have been exchanged and pehaps need a way to end. The victor would leave knowing he defending his point, the loser knows where he lost it now and could fine tune and perhaps come back stronger, this doesn't hamper intellectual growth, it cultivates it.

No, most exchanging of ideas does not revolve around "winning" especially when you take into consideration a large portion of discussion on here revolve around theoretical subjective subjects in which an infinite amount amount of conclusions can be reached. To take it to a higher level peer reviewed journals in academia don't revolve around "winning", but are actually rooted in constructing improvement and unique interpretations of pre-existing ideas.
 

Brown_Pride

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No, most exchanging of ideas does not revolve around "winning" especially when you take into consideration a large portion of discussion on here revolve around theoretical subjective subjects in which an infinite amount amount of conclusions can be reached. To take it to a higher level peer reviewed journals in academia don't revolve around "winning", but are actually rooted in constructing improvement and unique interpretations of pre-existing ideas.

yes and for THOSE types of threads this would not apply.

This is also not a "higher level".

Maybe i'm the only one who notices the crap that get's passed off as "constructive" here?
 

No1

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I'll give my opinion later. I'm at work for 3 more hours. Keep in mind I have recommended changing the way this board is presented period and probably continue to lobby for that.
 
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