Facility's no-CPR policy takes heat after woman's death

newarkhiphop

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:dwillhuh: this is the sickest shyt i have heard in a while, was hearing it on the radio last night, they didn't say whether the women died or not but apparently she did


The death of an 87-year-old woman who did not receive CPR in her central California retirement community was a tragedy waiting to happen, long-term care housing experts say.

A nurse at Glenwood Gardens in Bakersfield, Calif., refused to give Lorraine Bayless CPR after she collapsed last Tuesday in the dining room and was barely breathing. The nurse called 911 for help, saying it was against the facility's policy for staff to give CPR.

"It's a human being," dispatcher Tracey Halvorson says on a 911 tape released Sunday by the Bakersfield Fire Department. It was aired by many media outlets Monday.

"Is there anybody that's willing to help this lady and not let her die?"

"Um, not at this time,'' the nurse said. Bayless was declared dead at Mercy Southwest Hospital later Tuesday.

"I was appalled to hear of a policy at a facility that will not give CPR,'' says Robyn Grant, director of public relations and advocacy for The National Consumer Voice for Quality Longterm Care. "Who knew? I guess this has never come up before, but it will from now on. It's an incredible tragedy."

KGET-TV says Bayless' daughter told the station she is a nurse and was "satisfied with Glenwood's handling of the situation." It said she had no "do not resuscitate" order on file.

The executive director of Glenwood Gardens, Jeffrey Toomer, defended the nurse's actions, saying she did indeed follow policy.

"In the event of a health emergency at this independent living community our practice is to immediately call emergency medical personnel for assistance and to wait with the individual needing attention until such personnel arrives," Toomer said in a written statement. "That is the protocol we followed."

Toomer said a "thorough internal review" of the incident would be conducted. Bakersfield police are also conducting an investigation.

Toomer told KGET that residents of the home's independent living community are informed of the "no-CPR" policy and agree to it when they move in.

The policy does not apply at the adjacent assisted living and skilled nursing facilities. Those residents would have received CPR in identical circumstances.

Calls by USA TODAY to Toomer and parent company Brookdale Senior Living, which operates long-term care facilities in 36 states, were not returned. Glenwood Gardens' website says Brookdale facilities are listed among the top 2012 choices for senior living and nursing homes, on lists by CNN and U.S. News & World Report.

"This speaks to the fact that consumers have to be extremely vigilant when selecting independent living and assisted living care,'' Grant says. "It's really hard when you're looking for care and reading these contracts to understand every word. We suggest people take them to an attorney to understand the responsibilities of the facilities."

At many of the nation's retirement communities, the cost of the care is based on how much medical assistance is required. Both assisted living and skilled nursing care are more expensive than independent living.

"There's already a level of stress when you're looking for care because of costs involved and for many other reasons,'' Grant says. "I think it puts a harsh burden on seniors and needs to be more clear."

"The nursing home industry is the Wild West of health care, the most poorly regulated, with typically the most vulnerable of patients, and a high concentration of for-profit operators,'' says Chuck Idelson, spokesman for the California Nurses Association. "It's an area ripe for abuse, and greater public oversight is surely needed."

Not all facilities have the same policy, however. At Erickson Living, an effort would have been made to save Bayless, says Dan Dunne, director of communications for the company, which has retirement facilities in nine states.

"All of our communities have first responders who are trained to provide emergency care, including CPR whenever and wherever necessary," he says.

Grant questions the facility's response when the dispatcher is heard on the tape pleading with the nurse to find someone to do CPR.

"I hate to judge anyone who might be worried about losing a job in this economy,'' Grant says, "but you'd really hope human decency would stand above policy."

In the tape, the nurse could be heard talking to someone else at the facility.

"She's yelling at me," she said of dispatcher Halvorson, "and saying we have to have one of our residents perform CPR. I'm feeling stressed, and I'm not going to do that, make that call."

When Halvorson asked the nurse if she was going to let the woman die, the nurse said, "That's why we called 911."

When people are selecting longterm care, they need to read the fine print "and separate reality from the advertising pitch saying 'we'll take care of you','' says David Dosa, an associate professor of medicine at Brown University


it not even the policy that bothers me so much as how could one human being let another one die without even trying to help them


Facility's no-CPR policy takes heat after woman's death



:dwillhuh: @ the 911 call
 

zerozero

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I'm not really qualified (or sure of how) to judge this situation

but if I was 80+ I'd probably have DNR on file too. If the patient already knows and consents clearly that there is no CPR...
 

Brown_Pride

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I'm not really qualified (or sure of how) to judge this situation

but if I was 80+ I'd probably have DNR on file too. If the patient already knows and consents clearly that there is no CPR...

on paper and in black in white i'd agree...
but the lady was just so fukin cold about it that it doesn't sit well with me.

I don't know i just picture the old lady sitting there WANTING CPR, with this nurse looking her in the face saying she's not gonna help all :merchant: and simply being assed out because a policy.

Do nurses have to take a Hippocratic oath at all i wonder? If so this biotch failed and failed hard.
 

The Real

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So why exactly is it against the policy? What good reason could you possibly have for refusing someone CPR? I can't think of a real argument for this.
 

Brown_Pride

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So why exactly is it against the policy? What good reason could you possibly have for refusing someone CPR? I can't think of a real argument for this.

Spit balling here but what if someone does it wrong and the person dies? Say granny has heartburn and Ursula the nurse does CPR and explodes granny's lung :manny: i know most states have a "good Samaritan" law where you can't really get blamed for TRYING to help someone. If i had to guess though THAT would be the reason.

Or maybe this is a *wink, wink* *nudge nudge* type of assisted suicide place. :manny:
 

kbtwofour

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So why exactly is it against the policy? What good reason could you possibly have for refusing someone CPR? I can't think of a real argument for this.

Why? Because your ass will get sued later on if she dies.

People have to understand that healthcare is a legality field and every day you go to work your license and career is on the line.

Did the nurse do anything wrong? Not at all because she followed protocols and policies. The dispatcher has to understand nobody is going to risk their license and career.

Let me give you some input from someone who actually works in health care.

1. Just because someone is certified to do CPR does not mean they know what to do and it does not mean they know how to do it under pressure.

2. When a person stops breathing and they call a code... the chances of that person surviving are slim. There are places out there that refused to do CPR on their clients and are order to call 911. And if they do survive the incident you have to think about the long term effects that could have on a person. What if they perform CPR on the lady, she survives, but the damage to her body was irreversible and was in a coma for the rest of her life? There is a reason why they have DNRs.

3. I have seen a patient die in front of me because this patient had a DNR and nobody could do anything to save this patient, but watch the patient die because that's what they wanted.

4. Let's say the place did not have a policy against CPR and the staff performed CPR on the patient. The patient ends up with broken ribs because of the staff doing chest compressions on the patient. Guess what? That's a lawsuit right there because the family will say the staff caused the patient to die during CPR.
 

kbtwofour

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The nurse could've been more polite on the phone, but she did nothing wrong and the facility did nothing.

What's the difference between having a policy against CPR and only allowing patients with a DNR? Same shyt.

The family is not mad about the incident and I'm sure they were told ahead of time before they signed the contract they had a policy against CPR.
 

newarkhiphop

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Why? Because your ass will get sued later on if she dies.

People have to understand that healthcare is a legality field and every day you go to work your license and career is on the line.

Did the nurse do anything wrong? Not at all because she followed protocols and policies. The dispatcher has to understand nobody is going to risk their license and career.

Let me give you some input from someone who actually works in health care.

1. Just because someone is certified to do CPR does not mean they know what to do and it does not mean they know how to do it under pressure.

2. When a person stops breathing and they call a code... the chances of that person surviving are slim. There are places out there that refused to do CPR on their clients and are order to call 911. And if they do survive the incident you have to think about the long term effects that could have on a person. What if they perform CPR on the lady, she survives, but the damage to her body was irreversible and was in a coma for the rest of her life? There is a reason why they have DNRs.

3. I have seen a patient die in front of me because this patient had a DNR and nobody could do anything to save this patient, but watch the patient die because that's what they wanted.

4. Let's say the place did not have a policy against CPR and the staff performed CPR on the patient. The patient ends up with broken ribs because of the staff doing chest compressions on the patient. Guess what? That's a lawsuit right there because the family will say the staff caused the patient to die during CPR.

Yea i think most of us understand slightly the legal aspect of it , but like someone mentioned before its how COLD she was . that lady who died was someone mom, sister , grandma etc , and she was so robotic like HEY yea she going to die sorry. She knew that making a phone call to EMS wasnt going to do shyt neither.
 

kbtwofour

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Yea i think most of us understand slightly the legal aspect of it , but like someone mentioned before its how COLD she was . that lady who died was someone mom, sister , grandma etc , and she was so robotic like HEY yea she going to die sorry. She knew that making a phone call to EMS wasnt going to do shyt neither.

Yeah, she was cold and was a bytch.

Her hands were tied and she died what corporate told her to do which was call 911.

I'd never work in a place like that because that goes against everything that a nurse is suppose to do. You're suppose to help people not watch them die. It's one thing when a person decides they want to be DNR instead of a facility telling you they're unofficially making you a DNR.

This doesn't just go for patients because I'm sure it goes for employees, family members, friends, and visitors at the place.
 

OneManGang

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Why? Because your ass will get sued later on if she dies.

People have to understand that healthcare is a legality field and every day you go to work your license and career is on the line.

Did the nurse do anything wrong? Not at all because she followed protocols and policies. The dispatcher has to understand nobody is going to risk their license and career.

Let me give you some input from someone who actually works in health care.

1. Just because someone is certified to do CPR does not mean they know what to do and it does not mean they know how to do it under pressure.

2. When a person stops breathing and they call a code... the chances of that person surviving are slim. There are places out there that refused to do CPR on their clients and are order to call 911. And if they do survive the incident you have to think about the long term effects that could have on a person. What if they perform CPR on the lady, she survives, but the damage to her body was irreversible and was in a coma for the rest of her life? There is a reason why they have DNRs.

3. I have seen a patient die in front of me because this patient had a DNR and nobody could do anything to save this patient, but watch the patient die because that's what they wanted.

4. Let's say the place did not have a policy against CPR and the staff performed CPR on the patient. The patient ends up with broken ribs because of the staff doing chest compressions on the patient. Guess what? That's a lawsuit right there because the family will say the staff caused the patient to die during CPR.

Said everything I wanted to say in one fell swoop. You a doctor?
 

zerozero

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So why exactly is it against the policy? What good reason could you possibly have for refusing someone CPR? I can't think of a real argument for this.

if they have "do not resuscitate" and you do CPR and they're brain damaged and paralyzed on a machine for the rest of their life.. have you done them a favor?
 

kbtwofour

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Said everything I wanted to say in one fell swoop. You a doctor?

I am not a Dr.

How many Drs have you seen do CPR on a patient and take control of a code?

I have cowokers who are BLS/ACLS/PALS certified and I would not trust them doing CPR on me if I needed it. :merchant:

How come nobody is talking about other issues like some hospitals and facilities do not allow their staff to save someone's life if they're outside of the hospital.

Let's say someone had a stoke in the hospital parking lot... the ER staff can't go help you if you're a certain distance away from the hospital entrance. So you have to call 911, get an ambulance to pick you and drop you off in the ER. :comeon: You only have 15 mins to get help if you had a stroke.
 

kbtwofour

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if they have "do not resuscitate" and you do CPR and they're brain damaged and paralyzed on a machine for the rest of their life.. have you done them a favor?

Nobody would perform CPR on a patient who is consider legally DNR.

DNR means you do not try to save the patients life which means no CPR.
 

zerozero

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Nobody would perform CPR on a patient who is consider legally DNR.

DNR means you do not try to save the patients life which means no CPR.

right. I think people are confused about the workings of CPR. It's not like TV where someone's heart stops and then it starts then they're ok again. There's a lot of failures and a lot of times when it succeeds people's quality of life is never regained. So patients choose DNR sometimes. I almost certainly would at 80+

Something interesting the article brings up which I can see as a problem is if the no-CPR nursing homes are also cheaper nursing homes thus creating a context in which retirees with less money have to sign DNR to get in just because it's the way to afford the lower priced homes
 

kbtwofour

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right. I think people are confused about the workings of CPR. It's not like TV where someone's heart stops and then it starts then they're ok again. There's a lot of failures and a lot of times when it succeeds people's quality of life is never regained. So patients choose DNR sometimes. I almost certainly would at 80+

The only ethical problem I see here is if the no-CPR nursing homes are also cheaper nursing homes thus creating a context in which retirees with less money have to sign DNR to get in just because it's the way to afford the lower priced homes

This patient was living in an assisting living place, so she must of had some money because assisting living is not cheap.

The one thing that pisses me off is when I see people who are old and their quality of life is not good and their status is full code.

Do you seriously want me to perform CPR on a patient who is 85 years old, dying, and has all these health problems? :childplease:
 
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