Dr. Tommy Curry on Black Manhood and CRT

[21stCenturyColiMascot]

 

[21stCenturyColiMascot]

If the video isnt playing, go to you youtube and look for BGS Ibmor's channel and paste in this thread's title...

 

[Tair]

Dr. Curry is one of the top scholars of the 21st century.

 

[WIA20XX]

BGS ripped the video from IAI - Dilemmas of black manhood | Tommy Curry

Great video.

 

[saturn7]

Was just about to post this the ADOS thread.

 

[Piff Perkins]

I saw someone post clips of this earlier and watched much of the interview. Very interesting. One thing that I wanted clarification on was the contrast between white perception of black people as animals, and the white perception of black people as men and women (and the gender roles that go with that - or did during slavery through the civil rights era). His critique of intersectionality is that traditionally we were viewed as Others or animals, so there was no real distinction about gender. Besides "men work in the field, women in the kitchen" I guess. But later he mentions that part of the reason black men face more violence from white power structures is that traditionally it's more natural to do that to men, whereas the femininity of women may result in a less violent encounter. Isn't that an acknowledgement of the intersectional side of things, in terms of different ways black men and black women are treated - and the different outcomes that creates?

I don't fukk with intersectional shyt and largely find it to be divisive and dumb. I just thought this was a potential contradiction.

 

[MasterOfAllHeSurveyz]

I saw someone post clips of this earlier and watched much of the interview. Very interesting. One thing that I wanted clarification on was the contrast between white perception of black people as animals, and the white perception of black people as men and women (and the gender roles that go with that - or did during slavery through the civil rights era). His critique of intersectionality is that traditionally we were viewed as Others or animals, so there was no real distinction about gender. Besides "men work in the field, women in the kitchen" I guess. But later he mentions that part of the reason black men face more violence from white power structures is that traditionally it's more natural to do that to men, whereas the femininity of women may result in a less violent encounter. Isn't that an acknowledgement of the intersectional side of things, in terms of different ways black men and black women are treated - and the different outcomes that creates?

I don't fukk with intersectional shyt and largely find it to be divisive and dumb. I just thought this was a potential contradiction.

He responds to emails.

 

[WIA20XX]

I saw someone post clips of this earlier and watched much of the interview. Very interesting. One thing that I wanted clarification on was the contrast between white perception of black people as animals, and the white perception of black people as men and women (and the gender roles that go with that - or did during slavery through the civil rights era). His critique of intersectionality is that traditionally we were viewed as Others or animals, so there was no real distinction about gender. Besides "men work in the field, women in the kitchen" I guess. But later he mentions that part of the reason black men face more violence from white power structures is that traditionally it's more natural to do that to men, whereas the femininity of women may result in a less violent encounter. Isn't that an acknowledgement of the intersectional side of things, in terms of different ways black men and black women are treated - and the different outcomes that creates?

Curry's argument, and most people in Black Male studies have a problem with intersectionality as applied - because if you follow the theory
Being Black is Bad
Being a Woman is Bad
So, being a Black Woman is doubly bad.
Thus Black Men have it better.

Without much proof, except for middle class paychecks compared to those of white men, Black Feminists have used this theory to get material resources from the State and Private Organizations/Individuals. (See Goldman Sachs giving Black WOMEN Businesses 10 BILLION because BLACK MEN are being killed by cops. There's no logical connection).

That's their argument. Black Woman is the wretched of the Earth. Black men have patriarchy working for them. "Black men are the White men of Black People" type thinking.

But when Curry looked at the data, what he found, and what everyone finds, is that Black Men get far worse outcomes than Black women.

• Health Care
• Life Expectancy.
• Criminal Justice
• Violence.
• Education.

Example - Intersectionality predicts that Black Men should have an easier time and better grades in public schooling and college education over Black Women, specifically because Society treats Men better than women. We find the exact opposite.

Homelessness? Black Men have it the worst.
Jobs - More Black women are employed at various different economic classes. A lot of other studies show that men make more money than women - even at the same job - because men go to work more and take more overtime. here's one about Male vs Female Uber Drivers - https://web.stanford.edu/~diamondr/UberPayGap.pdf

According to intersectionality, Black Women should be at the bottom of every list.
More often than not, they beat Black men handily in every statistical measure but a few.
Women, even Black women, are more protected by American Society than men.
And American society, specifically goes after Black Men.

That flies in the face of their theory, but the stats are the stats.

The data should refute the theory - but the people pushing intersectionality aren't empiricists.

 

[21stCenturyColiMascot]

Curry's argument, and most people in Black Male studies have a problem with intersectionality as applied - because if you follow the theory
Being Black is Bad
Being a Woman is Bad
So, being a Black Woman is doubly bad.
Thus Black Men have it better.

Without much proof, except for middle class paychecks compared to those of white men, Black Feminists have used this theory to get material resources from the State and Private Organizations/Individuals. (See Goldman Sachs giving Black WOMEN Businesses 10 BILLION because BLACK MEN are being killed by cops. There's no logical connection).

That's their argument. Black Woman is the wretched of the Earth. Black men have patriarchy working for them. "Black men are the White men of Black People" type thinking.

But when Curry looked at the data, what he found, and what everyone finds, is that Black Men get far worse outcomes than Black women.

• Health Care
• Life Expectancy.
• Criminal Justice
• Violence.
• Education.

Example - Intersectionality predicts that Black Men should have an easier time and better grades in public schooling and college education over Black Women, specifically because Society treats Men better than women. We find the exact opposite.

Homelessness? Black Men have it the worst.
Jobs - More Black women are employed at various different economic classes. A lot of other studies show that men make more money than women - even at the same job - because men go to work more and take more overtime. here's one about Male vs Female Uber Drivers - https://web.stanford.edu/~diamondr/UberPayGap.pdf

According to intersectionality, Black Women should be at the bottom of every list.
More often than not, they beat Black men handily in every statistical measure but a few.
Women, even Black women, are more protected by American Society than men.
And American society, specifically goes after Black Men.

That flies in the face of their theory, but the stats are the stats.

The data should refute the theory - but the people pushing intersectionality aren't empiricists.

People run with an idea of what black men are (usually racist) but the data says otherwise....

 

[Piff Perkins]

Curry's argument, and most people in Black Male studies have a problem with intersectionality as applied - because if you follow the theory
Being Black is Bad
Being a Woman is Bad
So, being a Black Woman is doubly bad.
Thus Black Men have it better.

Without much proof, except for middle class paychecks compared to those of white men, Black Feminists have used this theory to get material resources from the State and Private Organizations/Individuals. (See Goldman Sachs giving Black WOMEN Businesses 10 BILLION because BLACK MEN are being killed by cops. There's no logical connection).

That's their argument. Black Woman is the wretched of the Earth. Black men have patriarchy working for them. "Black men are the White men of Black People" type thinking.

But when Curry looked at the data, what he found, and what everyone finds, is that Black Men get far worse outcomes than Black women.

• Health Care
• Life Expectancy.
• Criminal Justice
• Violence.
• Education.

Example - Intersectionality predicts that Black Men should have an easier time and better grades in public schooling and college education over Black Women, specifically because Society treats Men better than women. We find the exact opposite.

Homelessness? Black Men have it the worst.
Jobs - More Black women are employed at various different economic classes. A lot of other studies show that men make more money than women - even at the same job - because men go to work more and take more overtime. here's one about Male vs Female Uber Drivers - https://web.stanford.edu/~diamondr/UberPayGap.pdf

According to intersectionality, Black Women should be at the bottom of every list.
More often than not, they beat Black men handily in every statistical measure but a few.
Women, even Black women, are more protected by American Society than men.
And American society, specifically goes after Black Men.

That flies in the face of their theory, but the stats are the stats.

The data should refute the theory - but the people pushing intersectionality aren't empiricists.

This is my view as well. We've witnessed an impressive marketing campaign, and I wouldn't be mad at it IF it wasn't so closely tied to denigrating black men.

 

[Mr Hate Coffee]

video unavailable

 

[Neuromancer]

Video is gone. Anyone know where I can watch?

 

[greenvale]

video unavailable

Video is gone. Anyone know where I can watch?

Per OP's directions below I was able to watch it

If the video isnt playing, go to you youtube and look for BGS Ibmor's channel and paste in this thread's title...

 

[Amo Husserl]

I saw someone post clips of this earlier and watched much of the interview. Very interesting. One thing that I wanted clarification on was the contrast between white perception of black people as animals, and the white perception of black people as men and women (and the gender roles that go with that - or did during slavery through the civil rights era). His critique of intersectionality is that traditionally we were viewed as Others or animals, so there was no real distinction about gender. Besides "men work in the field, women in the kitchen" I guess. But later he mentions that part of the reason black men face more violence from white power structures is that traditionally it's more natural to do that to men, whereas the femininity of women may result in a less violent encounter. Isn't that an acknowledgement of the intersectional side of things, in terms of different ways black men and black women are treated - and the different outcomes that creates?

I don't fukk with intersectional shyt and largely find it to be divisive and dumb. I just thought this was a potential contradiction.

The thing about Tommy Curry is his holding of a philosophy Ph.D, his arguments are constructed on deductive, inductive and abductive reasoning. Courses in symbolic logic allow him to iron out his points clearly. The problem with just having a philosophy background is applying to to social situations that are so much more than reasoning. The reasoning will help tremendously, but until finer details from other social sciences are integrated into philosophical argumentation you're going to come off as tangential.

What Tommy Curry misses is the historical development of social engineering that cultivated black people in western society. Slavery as a starting point does nothing to show how the differences between black men and black women were determined. By the time the plantations were set up there was already a model based on not just European thought, but European interaction with Africans. You gotta take a step back and examine the whole picture. That is the problem with not looking at Africa.

Now let me deal with your point. White perception of black people had to be reduced to that of animals to justify enslavement, because they have a history of interacting with Africans through at least North Africa (Egypt). Only after the Reconquista was degradation on its current level taken into effect. African women played a pivotal role in allowing white men access to understanding tribal ways and trade networks through marriage and children, African men had another approach that was more businesslike in nature. When you're in the process of taking slaves as sanctioned by the Pope you do so by any means because it was ordained by God. These gender roles were extended to the plantation which is why you see the special relationship between white men and black women, the patriarchal design of European countries expanding into the west rested privilege and prestige in white men. A prestige white, black and native women understood.

Black feminists rarely want to deal with the sexual relationship between them and white men and how it enfranchised them through freedom and inheriting property, allowing their children greater access to education and other socioeconomic benefits that while not parallel to whites was better than what black men could provide. That is the difference, another man has come into the picture and although he's been abusive, he's provided more for the black woman than the black man.

Black feminist intersectionality likes to focus on the relationships between black men and women as a justification for black women to strike out on their own, but when they do they subject themselves to white male patriarchal models as an alternative, a model that has proven to enfranchise them based on their sexual history. So when we talk about intersectionality in feminist context we have to deal with the black woman's relationship with white supremacy and the black man's relationship with white supremacy, and when you look at books like Willie Lynch, it becomes clear there was a program involved to separate the two.

There's a reason the white man is paired with the black woman in the media and the black man is increasingly shown in a broken situation. There are a lot of factors at play and no one is more right than the other, but black people get caught up in thinking it's just one answer.