Class-reductionism, or the "Capitalism is the foundation of white supremacy" narrative

[MischievousMonkey]

BEWARE, THIS IS NOT A DEFENSE OF CAPITALISM, BUT RATHER A TRUE INDICTMENT OF WHITE SUPREMACY AND NEGROPHOBIA





Fred Hampton:

We’re going to fight racism not with racism, but we’re going to fight with solidarity. We say we’re not going to fight capitalism with black capitalism, but we’re going to fight it with socialism…. We’re going to fight… with all of us people getting together and having an international proletarian revolution.

I take all of the above statements for various forms of class reductionism. Here are my problems with class reductionism:

• While white supremacy is most likely an offshoot of capitalism, capitalism is not the foundation of white supremacy. The difference is fundamental; a house can't stand without its foundations. This is the reasoning those I hold for class reductionists use to justify their argument that not only you can't get rid of white supremacy without getting rid or fixing capitalism, but also that getting rid of or fixing capitalism will fix the white supremacy and racism issues.
• Capitalism is a motor and white supremacy is pollution. If you create a giant motor, and let it run for hundreds of years leading to mass pollution of the planet... Will turning it off or destroying the motor make your planet unpolluted? White supremacy is probably an offshoot of capitalism. That doesn't imply that destroying capitalism will destroy white supremacy. White supremacy became its own entity, with its own means of oppression, its own levers, its own paradigm, that cannot be understood entirely by the prism of class struggle, even if fathered by capitalism.
• Africans in China being barred from businesses, or accused of carrying COVID-19 and evicted and thrown out in the streets... Is that a consequence of capitalism? Is the heavy discrimination/hatred practiced by Italy against Africans standing on the shoulder of capitalism, when in facts, it goes against capitalist interests? Italy to legalize 200,000 migrants in the face of labor shortages; Is Eastern Europe's determination to preserve whiteness from any melanated folks a result of capitalism? Will the white American child who says the n-word all of a sudden be "liberated" from the racism somehow "imposed on himself" by the capitalist system once this one system crumbles?

• White supremacy is a global culture which transcends economic systems. The destruction of black Wall Street isn't the fruit of capitalism. It's the fruit of a culture of hatred that was cultivated organically by all classes of so-called superior races. it doesn't even make sense when put under the lens of capitalism (see below).
• Capitalism doesn't even necessarily fukk with racism, for racism doesn't make sense in a capitalist system, because it makes it inefficient. Barring black workers from your capitalist company doesn't make sense economically. Preventing a major segment of people from getting richer based on an arbitrary trait is destroying a consumer base and huge market. Civil rights/integration benefited capitalism as well as its needs for constant growth, in fact, it fits in capitalist ideals. Capitalist interests were actually some of the reasons leading to the official abolition of slavery by enslaving nations.
• The Kwame Nture argument that because "capitalism destroyed us, then we must be socialist" is also flawed. The argument "my enemy was X when he beat me, so I must become Y, the opposite of X" is a poor one.

Strawman about class-reductionism:
The Myth of Class Reductionism

Although there are no doubt random, dogmatic class reductionists out there, the simple fact is that no serious tendency on the left contends that racial or gender injustices or those affecting LGBTQ people, immigrants, or other groups as such do not exist, are inconsequential, or otherwise should be downplayed or ignored. Nor do any reputable voices on the left seriously argue that racism, sexism, homophobia, and xenophobia are not attitudes and ideologies that persist and cause harm.

“Class reductionism” is, in other words, a myth.

Not at all the argument that class-reductionism puts up. Class-reductionism doesn't say that marxists, socialists and other don't believe in racism or minimize it. It says they don't understand its full scope, namely as a culture operating beyond economic systems.


That is NOT to say that capitalism benefits black people, that capitalism is good, that trying to tackle capitalism can't be beneficial to black people. Talking about class reductionism doesn't mean that capitalism is any good. I'm not saying any of that.

I'm saying stop simplifying issues by using shortcuts that trivialize them. I'm not surprised that white Marxists, socialists, etc. love this idea that in fighting capitalism they actually fighting white supremacy. But I'm surprised that today, a lot of black people harp on this idea too, especially with all the progress we made in understanding how white supremacy and negrophobia work globally as a culture, regardless of the system it operates under. I just don't want my peers to fall for the thousandth okey-dokey talking about "comrade"



with their oppressed white brother just to end up in a new system, where the same brother will tell them to stop with identity politics, since "racism disappeared with the revolution stop being divisive". While practicing the same insidious negrophobia & discrimination that permeates every society and system regardless of ideological positioning.

 

[MischievousMonkey]

Thread might be a work in progress. I want to hear yall thoughts. Especially to those that might feel targeted by my comments. I know I exchanged with and saw some who believed in this.

 

[saturn7]

1 Star for Commie babble.

 

[saturn7]

But on the real it seems that WS existed first, capitalism developed and was the turbo fuel (I've heard a lefty say) for the system of white supremacy.

 

[Bawon Samedi]

Very good thread. @MischievousMonkey

 

[Apollo Creed]

But on the real it seems that WS existed first, capitalism developed and was the turbo fuel (I've heard a lefty say) for the system of white supremacy.

Eurocentric political ideologies were all created as processes and procedures to implement white supremacy.

black people adopting these ideals would assume Black people have the same needs/requirements as whites which many would argue is false.

 

[EndDomination]

Cedric Robinson talks about this in his book Black Marxism.

I studied the "History of Race" in undergrad for a bit - but socialization was a concept that greatly predates "capitalism" and was an element noted in feudalism and pre-feudal times as well. Darker peoples have faced a much longer history of prejudice against them, though it wasn't made into an "especially" African thing *until* capitalism.

Ethnic and tribal prejudices have been in Europe for millennia, and in both Africa and Asia as well - the creation of a racial "other" in Europe happened with most of its ethnic groups at some point or another before the 1400s - and only continued.

Capitalism allowed for capital accumulation and control by a select group and reinforced the old prejudices of the previous regimes and feudal systems - hyper-exploitation was focused on "out" groups - so African peoples, alongside Native and Asian peoples, were targetted. The hyper-exploitation cut through African peoples the deepest - due to both the chattel enslavement of people and the colonial exploitation of Africa.

 

[saturn7]

Western European Christian Supremacy kicked off when Pope Nicholas V issued the papal bull Dum Diversas of 1452 which allowed for enslavement of "Saracens (Muslims) and pagans and any other unbelievers”, another bull in 1455 included Africans and the people in the "New World".

Dum Diversas
The Role of the Roman Catholic Church in Slavery - Global Black History

Moors being driven out of Spain in 1492. Spain later financed the expeditions of Cristóbal Colón. We know how it went from here.

"Capitalism" as a system developed a little later. They certainly enhanced each other.

 

[MischievousMonkey]

Cedric Robinson talks about this in his book Black Marxism.

I studied the "History of Race" in undergrad for a bit - but socialization was a concept that greatly predates "capitalism" and was an element noted in feudalism and pre-feudal times as well. Darker peoples have faced a much longer history of prejudice against them, though it wasn't made into an "especially" African thing *until* capitalism.

Ethnic and tribal prejudices have been in Europe for millennia, and in both Africa and Asia as well - the creation of a racial "other" in Europe happened with most of its ethnic groups at some point or another before the 1400s - and only continued.

Capitalism allowed for capital accumulation and control by a select group and reinforced the old prejudices of the previous regimes and feudal systems - hyper-exploitation was focused on "out" groups - so African peoples, alongside Native and Asian peoples, were targetted. The hyper-exploitation cut through African peoples the deepest - due to both the chattel enslavement of people and the colonial exploitation of Africa.

A little (?) difference I would note in regards of the quote in bold: it appears that when, let's say, the Ancient Greeks for example, were viewing other "European" people, such as the "English" or the Gallic, as barbarians (a word that originally came from them not understanding their language ), they judged them as uncivilized because of their cultural practices, not innate defect. That's the difference I make with racism, when you talk about "racial other".

I agree with you otherwise.

 

[Genos]

I personally don't get how you couldn't believe in class reductionism at the end of the day, I'm not saying its the end all be all answer but if you only thought this and ignored everything else you would have a better understanding of the situation than most people. If you don't count capitalism as the primary source of white supremacy then how else would you describe whites taking over the planet? To me the other answer would be that they are racist and wanted it more than other groups but that sounds like what a WS wants to hear as it means that they have more willpower.

 

[MischievousMonkey]

I personally don't get how you couldn't believe in class reductionism at the end of the day, I'm not saying its the end all be all answer but if you only thought this and ignored everything else you would have a better understanding of the situation than most people.

I mean, most people have a very surface level understanding of white supremacy anyway. That doesn't make a good case for class reductionism being able to explain how it works and how it manifests.

If you don't count capitalism as the primary source of white supremacy then how else would you describe whites taking over the planet? To me the other answer would be that they are racist and wanted it more than other groups but that sounds like what a WS wants to hear as it means that they have more willpower.

I'm not sure I understand the quote in bold?

As I said in the OP, even when you consider capitalism as the origin of white supremacy, the culture ensuing from it became an entity of its own, which cannot be fully or even well understood through the unique prism of capitalism. There are many historical and current occurrences of white supremacy that simply don't fit into the capitalist model.

 

[Genos]

I mean, most people have a very surface level understanding of white supremacy anyway. That doesn't make a good case for class reductionism being able to explain how it works and how it manifests.

True but that does not discount the fact unlike any other factor of White supremacy, focusing on class would give you the most complete understanding of WS than focusing on any other subject.

I'm not sure I understand the quote in bold?


As I said in the OP, even when you consider capitalism as the origin of white supremacy, the culture ensuing from it became an entity of its own, which cannot be fully or even well understood through the unique prism of capitalism. There are many historical and current occurrences of white supremacy that simply don't fit into the capitalist model.

I am not saying that capitalism is the source but it is the fuel.

My bold point is this, whites hold the vast majority of the power in the world. They are the heads of many states and are the heads of most of the most powerful ones. Almost every major corporation is ran by whites, the vast majority of the richest people on the planet are whites. Whites also run almost every major industry and regularly exploit people around the world to propagate these industries. If capitalism is not the thing that allows them to do that then I would like to hear what that is. Also by capitalism I mean the private ownership of the means of production and not the ability to buy and sell things in general (which does require the private ownership of the means of production).

 

[NZA]

bigotry means some populations are more exploitable, therefore capitalism can exacerbate existing problems, but it is not necessarily creating those problems. and, if those particular populations become less exploitable, capitalism is free to adjust.

societies change, and capitalism changes with it but racism can remain because tribalism is human nature. capitalism works with racism as long as it is profitable, but the lack of profitability doesnt mean an end to racism because some other people in a society are going to act on their tribal interests instead of material interests. not all whites are willing or enthusiastic participants in capitalist market behavior. some are content to be a big fish in a small pond and operate a diner that makes enough money to stay open but refuses money from blacks. this is why so many american cacs hate jews so much - they view them as race traitors who pathologically dissolve white solidarity from the inside, usually for profit.

 

[MischievousMonkey]

True but that does not discount the fact unlike any other factor of White supremacy, focusing on class would give you the most complete understanding of WS than focusing on any other subject.

I disagree. I believe a way better understanding of white supremacy is comprehending that it acts as a culture, first and foremost.

I am not saying that capitalism is the source but it is the fuel.

My bold point is this, whites hold the vast majority of the power in the world. They are the heads of many states and are the heads of most of the most powerful ones. Almost every major corporation is ran by whites, the vast majority of the richest people on the planet are whites. Whites also run almost every major industry and regularly exploit people around the world to propagate these industries. If capitalism is not the thing that allows them to do that then I would like to hear what that is. Also by capitalism I mean the private ownership of the means of production and not the ability to buy and sell things in general (which does require the private ownership of the means of production).

You present capitalism as what allows them to enforce white supremacy. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with that. That would make capitalism nothing more than a mere tool. Which doesn't help us much when it comes to understanding white supremacy.

Take the disparities black people suffer from when it comes to medical treatment:

shyt like this is also why

In all, black women are 243 percent more likely than white women to die from pregnancy- or childbirth-related causes, producing one of the largest racial disparities in women’s health, according to ProPublica.

This is even after accounting for economic status and health of the mothers,

This cannot be accounted by capitalism-focused analyses. But this is definitely a branch of white supremacy. Hence why those analyses can be legitimately called "reductionist". They peep a wider system composed of different fabrics through a simplistic, narrow, window of understanding.

I provided other examples in the OP. The systemic behaviors and actions that allow for white supremacy to be enforced are multiple and many of them don't fit in the capitalist system.

Moreover, and that perhaps even more important, many of them are not justified by the capitalist system. Class-reductionism is also about taking the posture that white supremacy is just an expression of capitalist interests. That is not true.

 

[MischievousMonkey]

Struggle for resources? Grand masterplan fomented by faceless owners to divide while they reign?

The level of focus that is captalism leaves out entire parts of white supremacy.