ASOIAF: Mad Queen or Well-Intentioned Extremist?

[FrederickDouglas]

I would post this in the Game of Thrones threads, but I feel like this warrants a conversation all on its own.

For those of you who don't know what a "well-intentioned extremist" is, here's a link.

Well-Intentioned Extremist - TV Tropes

Was Daenerys Targaryen really the "Mad Queen" as many people have labeled her...or was she simply a well-intentioned extremist?

Contrast Daenerys with her father, Aerys, the "Mad King".

"The Seven Kingdoms prospered during Aerys's reign, due to his Hand of the King, for Tywin Lannister was everything Aerys was not. Tywin was diligent, decisive, tireless, fiercely intelligent, just and stern. Eventually, Aerys came to regret his choice for Hand – not because of any lack of competence on Tywin's part, but rather the opposite."

"Courtiers at the court who wished to win the king's favor and gain advancement soon learned the best way to gain the king's eye was to mock and make japes about Lord Tywin. King Aerys continued to undermine and slight his Hand, which amused many lords who were rivals of Lord Tywin or who simply disliked the humorless man. Tywin Lannister suffered all these slights in silence, never showing any public display of weakness. When Joanna Lannister died in childbirth in 273 AC, the king had been heard to remark that Joanna had died, and Tywin had begotten his dwarf son instead from the gods, 'to teach him some humility at last'."

"The king's madness abated slightly with the birth of another son, who he named Jaehaerys, in 274 AC. In fact, Jaehaerys's birth almost restored the king to his old self. This changed when Jaehaerys died later that same year. In a black rage, Aerys had the boy's wet nurse beheaded, convinced it had been her fault. He soon had a change of heart, and declared that his mistress was to blame, having poisoned the young babe. Aerys had her and her entire family tortured and eventually executed. Under torture, all confessed to murdering Prince Jaehaerys, though their accounts on Jaehaerys's death greatly differed from one another."

"The king had Brandon Stark and his companions arrested on charges of conspiring against the life of the crown prince, demanding that their fathers present themselves at court to answer for their sons' crimes. When they did so, Aerys had them all executed without a fair trial, except Ethan Glover. When Lord Rickard Stark demanded a trial by combat, King Aerys chose fire as his champion. Lord Rickard was burned alive by wildfire as Brandon was forced to watch, strapped into a torture device that caused him to strangle himself in his attempts to save his father."

"Aerys grew sexually abusive toward Rhaella, developing a sexual fetish for fire and death and only sleeping with Rhaella after he had executed someone by burning. The last time was during Robert's Rebellion after Aerys burned his then-Hand, Lord Qarlton Chelsted, for opposing the Mad King's wildfire plot. Jaime recalls listening outside Rhaella's bedchamber as she cried as the king raped her; when Jaime protested that the Kingsguard were sworn to defend the queen as well, his sworn brother Ser Jonothor Darry replied, "We are, but not from him". The queen's maids reported seeing scratches, bruises and bite marks all over her body."

Does any of that shyt sound like Daenerys at all? Throughout his life, Aerys committed horrific acts that Daenerys would have condemned. He acted more like a Ramsey or a Joffrey than anything.

I've always thought Daenerys to be a well-intentioned extremist that would later become the "Mad Queen". Her first and only impulsive act of madness was burning down King's Landing. I was interested to see how she would be portrayed in the finale and it confirmed, to me at least, that she was a well-intentioned extremist, unlike her father who was just fukking nuts.

A well-intentioned extremist is "A villain who has an overall goal which the heroes can appreciate in principle, but whose methods of pursuing said goal (such as mass murder) are problematic; despite any sympathy they may have with their cause, the heroes have no choice but to stop them. Taken to extremes, they may fully believe that Utopia Justifies the Means."

Her whole speech near the beginning of the finale about basically taking over everything for the good of the people was justification in her mind for burning one city to the ground. When Tyrion disrespected her publicly for burning down King's Landing and abandoned his post as "Hand of the Queen" like it was garbage, after she rightfully accused him of being a traitor, she didn't execute him on the spot or torture him. She had him locked up. Her father would not have tolerated such disrespect.

She was in love with Jon Snow and I doubt she would have killed him, even trying to justify her actions to him. I do believe she planned to kill Sansa (and the bytch deserved it, as she was partially responsible for Daenery's temporary insanity in burning down King's Landing).

But her behavior post King Landing's destruction was not that of a Mad Queen. It was that of a Well-Intentioned Extremist. She had good intentions, and she justified the evil she did as a means to an end. She had to die, no doubt, but I believe her character was consistent.

Everybody has a breaking point. It was a culmination of things that led to her destroying King's Landing. But, afterwards, she did not behave sadistic or deranged. Delusional, maybe, but not the Mad Queen

TLDR: Daenery's was not the Mad Queen, just a Well-Intentioned Extremist who had a bout of temporary insanity.

 

[FrederickDouglas]

@YaThreadFloppedB!

So I guess it's just me that feels this way, huh?

 

[Black Ball]

Without reading your post, she obviously didn't go mad. She wasn't near the true mental collapse of her father.

The storyline could have worked and been brilliant if executed well. Probably should have dedicated a whole season to bringing her to that particular conclusion, so that it plays out as more of a determined obsession similar to Stannis. Her decision making should have become more subtly shifted and consistent over time. Her decisions were contradictory as hell leading up to her "mental break" that was actually completely unnecessary. They could have at least made it so that she was slightly provoked by the people into going over-the-top with it.

This nikka Stannis burned his own daughter alive, but that shyt worked, because it was written and executed well.

 

[FrederickDouglas]

Without reading your post, she obviously didn't go mad. She wasn't near the true mental collapse of her father.

The storyline could have worked and been brilliant if executed well. Probably should have dedicated a whole season to bringing her to that particular conclusion, so that it plays out as more of a determined obsession similar to Stannis. Her decision making should have become more subtly shifted and consistent over time. Her decisions were contradictory as hell leading up to her "mental break" that was actually completely unnecessary. They could have at least made it so that she was slightly provoked by the people into going over-the-top with it.

This nikka Stannis burned his own daughter alive, but that shyt worked, because it was written and executed well.

My thing is...I don’t think Dany can be defined as the Mad Queen, especially when compared to her father, the Mad King.

And fukk Stannis. What he did to Shireen didn’t work at all. Stannis might have seen some shyt, but he wasn’t impervious to fire like Dany. If someone could walk through fire and not get burnt, most people couldn’t tell them shyt. Dany listened to her advisors even after walking through fire. Here Stannis spent all that time trying to prevent Shireen’s grayscale from spreading, but then he’s going to burn her to death. Dany didn’t know those folks in King’s Landing. That was Stannis’ only child. Stannis will forever be a piece of shyt for that, and so will Melisandre.

 

[Black Ball]

My thing is...I don’t think Dany can be defined as the Mad Queen, especially when compared to her father, the Mad King.

And fukk Stannis. What he did to Shireen didn’t work at all. Stannis might have seen some shyt, but he wasn’t impervious to fire like Dany. If someone could walk through fire and not get burnt, most people couldn’t tell them shyt. Dany listened to her advisors even after walking through fire. Here Stannis spent all that time trying to prevent Shireen’s grayscale from spreading, but then he’s going to burn her to death. Dany didn’t know those folks in King’s Landing. That was Stannis’ only child. Stannis will forever be a piece of shyt for that, and so will Melisandre.

You can hate Stannis for doing it, but it was believable that Stannis had gotten to that point out of desperation and misguided belief. Plus his wife & Melisandre was in his ear. It was believable within the context of the story. What Dany did wasn't at all believable.

 

[YaThreadFloppedB!]

 

[Roid Jones]

My thing is...I don’t think Dany can be defined as the Mad Queen, especially when compared to her father, the Mad King.

And fukk Stannis. What he did to Shireen didn’t work at all. Stannis might have seen some shyt, but he wasn’t impervious to fire like Dany. If someone could walk through fire and not get burnt, most people couldn’t tell them shyt. Dany listened to her advisors even after walking through fire. Here Stannis spent all that time trying to prevent Shireen’s grayscale from spreading, but then he’s going to burn her to death. Dany didn’t know those folks in King’s Landing. That was Stannis’ only child. Stannis will forever be a piece of shyt for that, and so will Melisandre.

Ah so killing hundreds of innocents is cool as long as you don't know them, no matter how you try to rationalize it she does not have to be on the level of her father to be called mad

 

[Duke_Droese]

Ah so killing hundreds of innocents is cool as long as you don't know them, no matter how you try to rationalize it she does not have to be on the level of her father to be called mad

war is war brehs. no better way than a good butchering to keep a continent in line and reduce future death.

people were just in their feels because instead of japanese, arabs or blacks, it was white people

#targset

 

[R.E.N. Spells Ren]

Nah, she was just crazy and irrational.

If those civilian kills were collateral as she tried to get Cersei or her armies, I could rock with the well intentioned extremist label, but she started blowing up blocks for no gain at all.

 

[Roid Jones]

war is war brehs. no better way than a good butchering to keep a continent in line and reduce future death.

people were just in their feels because instead of japanese, arabs or blacks, it was white people

#targset

Targset The whole house lost hard, the last remaining Trag, reps Stark and Wildling, tell Drogon to come back and fly away with this L too