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COOPER: A lot to discuss with CNN Political Commentator Tara Setmayer and Georgetown University Sociology Professor Michael Eric Dyson. He's also a contributing op-ed writer for "The New York times" and author of "The Black Presidency: Barack Obama and the Politics of Race in America".
Tara, you actually agree with a lot of what Mayor Giuliani said. Or do you -- is it your belief that "Black Lives Matter" movement is selective in where their outrage is, that they're not focusing on so- called black on black crime?
TARA SETMAYER, POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes. I mean I have this conversation with many people before. That I think that the idea of protesting against something that you feel there s an injustice in your community and you want to protest and change it, great. But the "Black Lives Matter" movement has clearly been co-opted. It's a political movement. It was started by very leftist people that were involved in the socialist organizations that are, you know, pro, very Marxist communist, take down capitalism. There's a whole larger agenda going on here with what "Black Lives Matter" wants. And they're using the situation with police, selective outrage.
COOPER: So you don't think that will rate about focused on police brutality, they're not concerned about ...
SETMAYER: I think that that's one of one area that they've chosen to focus on. But if for people who are objectively looking at this. For the American people who are standing back and saying, OK there's a problem, whether it's perceived or real OK. Obviously there's a problem. So what are we going to do to solve it? And they look at an organization that says, that they're going to cause all these problems, you know, all these protest. Many of them have gotten completely out of control. And to protest something that is actually quite rare.
Police shootings of black men in this country is very rare and yet -- and statistics prove that. Yet, they he ginned this up in a way that has created this very anti-police environment. And yet, you look at somewhere like Chicago or Baltimore whereas this evening, before we came in air. Five people were shot on the street corner, blacks, in Baltimore. This happens on a regular basis. 64 people shot in Chicago. 2,000 people have been shot in Chicago, majority black folks, just this year alone. And "Black Lives Matter" is not making that as much of a priority. That's where the epidemic is. Not dismissing the other problems if there's racism. But what, what -- if it's going to be about black lives matter, it should be all black lives matter prior to this protest.
COOPER: And we're looking at the "Black Lives Matter" protest right now in Chicago. This is actually taped, not live images, just from a few minutes ago. Michael in your op -- in your "New York Times" op-ed, you said that several black-on-black shootings in places like Chicago "Is not as understood as black-on-black crime rather it is neighbor-to-neighbor carnage." And that some people uses explanation as a way to diffuse the "Black Lives Matter" movement's focus.
MICHAEL ERIC DYSON, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY SOCIOLOGY PROFESSOR: Right. Absolutely. I think Ms. Setmayer is complaining that the oncologist is not the E and C doctor.
Everybody has a specialty. Everybody focuses on things that are problematic to them. And the entire body has to be dealt with. But there are people who look specifically at particular arenas and areas in life, number one. Number two, 84 percent of white people who are murdered are murdered by white people. 93 percent of black people who are murdered are murdered by black people.
So it's not black-on-black crime or white-on-white crime. It's neighbor-to-neighbor carnage because people kill where they live. If you want integrated killing you have to have integrated communities. People tend to kill where they nest. And as a result of that, the extraordinary precious on these communities lead to the undeniable carnage that we see. But police brutality is done in the name of the state.
What Ms. Setmayer is forgetting here is that when Jamal (ph) or Jaleshia (ph) or whoever hurts each other in the neighborhood, when they are found they are usually held to account. Police people wear a badge and a gun as the extension of the logic and authority of the state and most of them, when they are held to account or we attempt to hold them to account, they are not put in jail as a result of what they have done. Look, in the '70s, 3,000 cops -- I mean cops have done misdeeds to 3,000 black people. So much so that their police department in Philly was put into receivership. There is instance after instance of lethal police brutality. Not just police-involved shootings as Ms. Setmayer is talking about. It's the culture of violence. It's the dismissal. It's the racial profiling.
COOPER: Yeah.
DYSON: It's looking at them through a distorted prism. That's the problem. So "Black Lives Matter" does not foment violence. It attempts to acknowledge it in one sense and to diagnose it at the level of the state.
COPPER: Let me get back to Tara (). Because I do wanted -- I mean the "Black Lives Matter" website actually has a list of what they say are major misconceptions about the movement. And number one misconception, they say is "The movement doesn't care about black-on- black crime. The idea that black-on-black crime is not a significant political conversation among black people is patently false. In Chicago, long maligned for its high rates of intraracial, members of the community created the Violence Interrupters to disrupt e violent altercations before they escalate."
I mean there are a lot of protest in Chicago to stop violence.
SETMAYER: Yes. But that's not ...()
COOPER: Absolutely. (
SETMAYER: Perhaps but that's not "Black Lives Matters'" focus. I mean, first of all, I think, the whole idea of the "Black Lives Matter" moniker bothers me. All lives matter.
You know, I -- when I see these things happen or injustices happen or people are killed unjustly. You know, I look at the situation and say, you know, your life matter.
And that moniker bothers me to begin with. But they -- but the point is, Anderson, that they put a priority on an area that is not necessarily the area that's costing black lives.
Let's say we stand back and say, OK. We stop. We acknowledge that there is racism in police department. Absolutely I acknowledge that. It's that do I think that that's overwhelmingly the situation? No.
But if we were to take away all of to stop every single black life that was taken by a police officer in one year, it's about 112 to 120. That doesn't put a dent in the amount of black folks that are killing each other in the thousands. That's why I feel like it's misplaced anger is there, just focus on all of it.
COOPER: Michael, let me ask you about what Tara said, about the idea -- the slogan, "Black Lives Matter" as opposed to all lives matter. Why is important to say black lives matter, not all lives matter, in your opinion?
DYSON: Imagine if we lived in a heterosexist culture. Imagine that. I know it's very difficult. Imagine where a heterosexual sex was the norm and people says gay lives matter. And people go, wait a minute, heterosexual lives matter too. We know that. It's a heterosexual culture. As a result of that, it perpetuates on legacy of heterosexism that mitigates against the gay sexuality.
So all we're saying is that black lives matter too. We know that white lives matter. We know that this culture is built upon the premise of not only white supremacy but protection through law and the Supreme Court saying that white men had no reason to value the lives of black people. It is written literally in the Supreme Court, in it.
So the point is, we have to say black lives matter because we don't understand that they do. We're not suggesting that no one else's lives matter. We're saying we want to matter as well as other lives, which already manifestly matter.
And then about Tara's argument that if we stopped the focus on police brutality then the overwhelming consideration would be these communities. First of all, as you've already indicated, Anderson, these people -- I have participated in marches in Chicago, in Detroit and in Chicago where people are concerned about so-called interracial violence. And number two, what's interesting is that they are concerned about this issue in the context of state authority and police brutality is part of it.
That's why Martin Luther King Jr. made it a significant item in his 1963 march on Washington.
COOPER: We've got to ...
SETMAYER: You misunderstood me. I wasn't saying stop -- focus on police brutality. I said if we were able to stop all police murders of black men in this country ...
DYSON: Murder is not the only thing, brutality as well.
SETMAYER: But I think that the point is ...
DYSON: A culture of complexity, racial profiling. All those things matter as well.
SETMAYER: So that we then come up with a solutions because I haven't heard what those are.
DYSON: They have them. Look at their website. Listen to the people. Don't demonize them. Don't dismiss them.
SETMAYER: Well, I'm claiming death of cops isn't one of them.
DYSON: Don't marginalize them.
SETMAYER: Hearing organizer saying that is not going to do -- is not helping at all.
COOPER: You're looking at the ...
DYSON: You're mad at the NAACP is not the urban league. They all have different reasons and raison d'etre for their existence.
SETMAYER: Then they've got to root out the people that are out here saying "Death to police officers," "F the police" "GD white America." Which are things that came out of Black Lives Matter, where there were organizers over every single weekend.
DYSON: That's why I said because White Christianity has a few nuts therefore we're going to get rid of Jesus? No, the point is that all ...
SETMAYER: No, but they're not the ones that are part of this movement.
DYSON: ... that all cultures would do problematic experiences.
COOPER: Let her ...
SETMAYER: But they -- but you are -- we are talking about a movement that ...
DYSON: Black Lives Matter articulates a view point.
SETMAYER: We have five dead -- we have police officers being assassinated. We have to be ...
DYSON: No, no, no, police officer -- wait a minute.
COOPER: Let him respond.
DYSON: The overwhelming majority of the people who are dying are not police officers, they are people of color in the street who are dying at the hands of the police.
SETMAYER: No, actually -- actually it's white Americans that are overwhelmingly dying at the hands of police officers. If you look at the stats, you know that.
DYSON: No, it's about black people who are murdered, are murdered overwhelmingly.
SETMAYER: They're murdered by their own.
DYSON: Let me ask you this, why aren't white women ...
SETMAYER: They're murdered by their own by thousands.
DYSON: Why aren't white women cops killing white people -- black people? Why aren't Latino cops killing black people?
SETMAYER: They are.
DYSON: Why aren't black cops killing black people. No, the overwhelming majority of people who are cops who kill are white men. That's the thing you've got to address.
COOPER: We got to take a break. Michael Eric Dyson, thank you. Tara Setmayer we're going to talk to you throughout this next two hours.
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That intellectual sonning
